"Pink" smock or not?

[Banzi64]

I agree other countries utilized German camo design but, these smocks were not made with that intent. If they arn't real they were made to fool because, every aspect, of the construction and stitching, is perfect down to pocket material and war dated buttons whoever made these was really good and if they were just copying a design there would be no point to make them so perfect. Although, there is a point of surplus material laying around being a point why perhaps the pocket material is the same, as well as buttons and that brings up aother point. If they had all these other materials laying around to use why did they have to produce camo material it was around also. Just a thought

[phild]

Ben,
Save your money these are NOT pre may 1945 manufacture, robert noss did a very good side by side comparison of this camo some time ago with other oakleaf.

IMO These were probably made for one of the soon to be eastern block countries shortly after the war, more than likely the country of origin of these smocks, there are plenty of examples of post war countries in the west taking a german design and putting it into use post war and producing there own version like the army"splinter" pattern for example

cheers
Gary

photos below credit Robert Noss

Robert's side by side comparison demonstrated only that the pattern was different (modified for a larger roller but mostly the exact the same) as were many patterns of camo for the SS and Heer that varied slightly.

I disagree with the idea that contries copied WWII German items exactly after the war. I find that very rare if at all. Many did make patterns "inspired" by German (and other countries) items and many also re-issued and marked actual WWII items. A very high % of these smocks have Eastern European red and black ink stamps in the pockets....

[SJP]

These are Austrian made copies from the mid 80's.They were wholesaled to "dealers" for around $350.00 and quantity discounted to $250.00.
They have been blended with good items and "vet stories" to try gain legitimacy.
I researched these pieces in 1990 and came to the conclusion early on that they were copies. J.F. Borsarello's work shows this piece even though he knew it was a copy but "ammended" his view when he started collaborating w/ M. Beaver as it never shows up again in any serious study.(MO)
__________________________________________________ _____________
Cheers Steve

[Gary Wood]

Robert's side by side comparison demonstrated only that the pattern was different (modified for a larger roller but mostly the exact the same) as were many patterns of camo for the SS and Heer that varied slightly.

I disagree with the idea that contries copied WWII German items exactly after the war. I find that very rare if at all. Many did make patterns "inspired" by German (and other countries) items and many also re-issued and marked actual WWII items. A very high % of these smocks have Eastern European red and black ink stamps in the pockets....

Does larger rollers explain the area circled with a question mark? for use on larger rollers would they insert a new piece? if so would there not be a whole area across the print that was different rather than just one area? sorry do not know how the set up works so its a genuine question.

But, If these have not been made for a post-war army then i guess they are just fakes then, sorry my opinion is already formed and it would take some changing but i would like to hear more about the roller process


cheers
Gary

PS for those wanting to read some of the other threads on the subject link below, and of course a helmet cover to match the smocks

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187992

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136297
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104515

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77583

What's The Deal? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

[phild]

"Does larger rollers explain the area circled with a question mark? for use on larger rollers would they insert a new piece? if so would there not be a whole area across the print that was different rather than just one area? sorry do not know how the set up works so its a genuine question."

Fair question and I am sorry that I can not answer it. It does appear too me that the original pattern was modified for some reason as most of the pattern is in fact the same layout. I realize that one could take a position that this modification was caused by either wartime neccessity or adaption to a post war machine for faking the pattern.

As to SJP's observations I can say the following:

I first inspected these in mid-1981(in southern Germany). I was told by a friend that they had turned about a year earlier from CZ. Even with a rushed job designing, making and distributing these fakes (from what was then a communist country) I don't see how the work could have started earlier than the late 1970s (even if 79) so they absolutly date prior to the mid-80s.

The markings that are found in many examples (pockets) have never been addressed that I am aware of...they are the proverbial elephant in the room with these. The markings are not Austrian for sure.

[Gary Wood]

"
The markings that are found in many examples (pockets) have never been addressed that I am aware of...they are the proverbial elephant in the room with these. The markings are not Austrian for sure.

the markings are in Cyrillic if i am not mistaken and not all of these had them, as we have russian members on the forum does any one have a clear shot of these?,
cheers
Gary

[NZMark]

Like many, I have also owned one of these smocks. No markings were on my example.
I've always been bothered by a number of things -
1 - IF these are reproductions, made to fool and confuse collectors (as they have for nearly thirty years) so well made, so well copied with such a magnificent pattern etc etc - where are the new generation fakes that rectified the failings of this one? (None have flooded the market, have they?)
2 - Why has only a limited number appeared on the market?
3 - Why go so far with the accuracy and screw up the colour match to known examples? (Let's face it - whoever made these one's was a stickler for detail).
4 - Who made these reproductions - and where did they disappear to, because if you are on to a good thing, why give up?
A very interesting topic - one which will continue to be debated for quite a while until at least these four questions are satisfactorally answered.
Regards,
Mark.

[Palmenmuster]

Mark,
I totally agree with you, I can only add that my 2 "Pink" smocks both has printing flaws generally known to many original Oakleaf items. I will inspect my smocks and see if I can contribute further.

Best regards, Tom

[CIANO]

Hi,

If you see the photo, the print of the smock of the left, is very similar to the "pink ones"....What do you think?

[CIANO]

close up...it seems very similar...

[phild]

close up...it seems very similar...

The photo on the left is from the LAH book by Bender (I believe) and was posted years ago in a discussion of this type smock. There is no doubt that the distinct "4" dot block camo pattern is shown on the skirt of this smock and only the smocks in question have this pattern present. The question was then as now: Is this photo from WWII era or re-staged in B&W for the book?


(they are not "pink" in color by the way but rather rust and purple like fallen Birch leaves, most of the accepted smocks in Beaver's camo book are in fact truly pink in color, but there is no need to cloud the myth with fact at this point is there?)

[John Pic]

Someone who knows Noehren should ask him about it.

[pete]

.

Is that even a period photo? Or a "prop" photo made in black and white?

I had one of these but sold it to N & T way back. I think he sold it for abut $3000 after that!

They certainly did not have the correct material it was not duck material! It was in a very soft material! I can't see why they would have used such crap material in a smock. It certainly wouldn't have withstood weather and wear 'n tear, IMO!

Thing that gets me is, IF proof ever comes out as to who made these or a period proof says they really are real it will be interesting!

With all the links to SS organizations, veterans etc on here can we not ask a vet about these as well?

Best,

Pete

[Banzi64]

I always thought that photo was modern

[Bob Hritz]

I emailed Harper Noehren and asked him if the photo is modern or period. I will let you know his reply, when I hear back from Harper.

Bob Hritz