"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

David, thank you for illustrating the point. We do not know all the film companies who may have added inventory markings to these smocks.

We do know that the same markings appear on these smocks, and original items only.

s/f Robert

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

@ Tim :

if the report from Bud O'Toole is even partly correct, it is said that up to 100 were found or at least proposed to the US market.
The real number is not known.

Phild said that the first pink smocks sold didn't had the stamps.
It is not known if : - a few pink smocks never had stamps and were sold for a bit more due to that or if - after selling a few pink smocks without stamps, for an unknown reason (pimp their fakeness ?) stamps were added.

If i'm right, we currently have only 1 similar (but not identical) stamp on a palm tree smock proposed by The Ruptured Duck (i contacted them to know if better pictures may be available).
Thanks to one WAF member who recently provided a good picture of the stamp on his pink smock, we were able to see that it was similar (but not identical) to the one on the original palm tree smock.

So yes, pictures of other pink smocks stamps are needed.

For now i can't explain 1) the stamp on the palm tree smock 2) the "Minsk-Film" stamp who seemed to be bogus.
In that case, was the stamp on the palm tree smock added to legitimate the pink smocks ? Is the stamp on the palm tree legit, and if yes, was it copied to be added on the pink smocks to legitimate them ?



See You

Vince

[90th Light]

Chris
Great job IMO no need to copy-and-paste the whole wikipedia here. Just list the used names of these movie companies and we will see if they match

Thanks DP,

and I apologise for posting too much.

My knowledge of Russian is not good so I did not want to edit anything out that I did not understand. Plus the history leading up to, during, just after WW2 is interesting, also what happened around 1990,

Chris

[90th Light]

Without resorting to reading this entire thread, where it may have already been mentioned ?

In the original cache, approx how many pink smocks were found/discovered ?

How many of those have the studio/film markings/stamps approx ?

Of those is there not even a single smock that has the entire stamp readible ?

& is it correct that these stamps have been found on only original items & these pink smocks ?

Thanks
Tim

Tim, read post numbers 1026 & 1027. You will get a reasonable overview that will answer some of your questions,

Chris

[90th Light]

There were at least 25 Soviet film companies, more than the 15 listed, and we have no idea how the film companies were named before they merged, or how the names were abbreviated.

Again, these names changed over time since the 1940's - 1950's - 1960's, across the republics. Unless we have a true Soviet-era film industry expert among our members that understands the marking conventions of all the companies, I think trying to matches blotches on a fabric to a named company is ambitious.

But calling the company fictitious because we can't find it from quick internet searches is not good practice. We don't even know what it says.

I have seen the triangular and circular markings before on Soviet uniform items - they were used.

s/f Robert

Hello Robert,

Just reading the ones I found quickly, I fully appreciate what you are saying here and the magnitude of the inquiry,

Chris

[David Fettes]

With the huge amount of uniforms and equipment captured by the USSR, there would be no reason for them to make smocks for the film industry.

If they were made for a film the following thoughts spring to mind:-

1. Why are they printed on the inside? Would be no need for this.
2. Why have we not seen them in a postwar film? Could be as simple as the scene was cut or that nobody can claim to have seen every war film ever produced by the USSR film companies post war or it is in black and white and the smocks are in the background with no detail showing.

The other thing that puzzles me is this, some have claimed the buttons on the pockets are been sown in such a fashion that the smock cannot be reversed, again if this is correct, why print the fabric on the inside if not reversable?

If they are fake smocks made for the US market again why make them non reversable if this claim is true. Why go to the huge expense of roller printing both sides of the fabric, cutting them out, stitching them correctly, adding elastic, pockets, sourcing original buttons AND then cocking up the stitching on the pocket buttons?

[Patty D]

I'm not going to claim I've read the WHOLE thing, but I've kept up with the last 20-25 pages or so and my overview of it is pretty much spot-on with David's... (post below)

There just doesn't seem to be any clear cut reasons that point to any need to ever make them for a film - and with the same stamps found in other original uniforms (SS dot trousers, palm smock an an account of them being found in Russian uniforms...) it wouldn't hold true to "try" and enhance their value by adding (what was, at the time) depreciative stamps in there. Plus IF that was the case then why aren't ALL the pink smocks stamped up the same way?!?!

I'm not swayed either way since I don't own one (and tbh I don't think the owners of them are either, they just want to gain the truth), but based on the evidence here it's compelling, to say the least, in favour of them from what I'm reading. All I see from the nay-saying side (or some of it) is deflective, personal attacks that aren't needed in the slightest. These last few pages with some key evidence put forward is what it should be like, keep going on that trend

[Bob Chatt]

There just doesn't seem to be any clear cut reasons that point to any need to ever make them for a film - and with the same stamps found in other original uniforms (SS dot trousers, palm smock an an account of them being found in Russian uniforms...) it wouldn't hold true to "try" and enhance their value by adding (what was, at the time) depreciative stamps in there. Plus IF that was the case then why aren't ALL the pink smocks stamped up the same way?!?!

This thread has been very interesting and I love seeing both sides. But eventually (hopefully) the truth will be found out about these smocks.

The above comment about not understanding why to put stamps in the smocks during this time and enhancing the value, it is very easy GREED.

Fakers from the early days of collecting have known how to play on the collectors way of thinking. Why not put a nonsense stamp in something, as a collector will think, oh these were used for something. The stamps didn't add any monetary value, but they added piece of mind value. This doesn't happen just in the SS collecting field it happens in all areas of collecting. I remember in the late 70's and early 80's having patch fakers add Vietnamese newspaper to the back of their fakes, to make the collector think they were original. Or guys who would put together US uniforms, and would add 40's candy wrappers, coins or newspaper clippings into the pockets as they knew once a collector saw that all doubts would be gone. The same thing happens today as it did then.

The fakers know how to make a collector feel confident. They are not looking for the advanced collector to buy their items, they are looking for the ones who want an item but may not have as much knowledge as they think they have, and price it to these collectors at what is considered a fair price, as they know that that GREED will kick in and cloud any common sense. Reminds me of the SS Tuxedo badge scandal from a couple of years ago or the current problems with the CS helmets. Again, GREED kicked in and clouded everyone's judgement.

Someday, someone will prove one way or another if these "Pink" smocks are real or fake, but until then I personally just see a lot of posturing by "experts" and no real hard evidence is being shown, just guesses.

[Urka]

Hi guys
just a quick note
i have been working in a film studio, actually i started collecting and passioned in tunics after my work there.

Just to let you know you may find original tunics in film studios as communists put all items they got from the front in film and theatre studios for future propaganda movies.

In the studio i worked there were like 100 LW tunics and about 25 WH tunics. I managed to buy some of them.

STILL a lot of really good props were made with ORIGINAL matherial as most people got some original cloth and looking at original tunics, managed to make some nice repros from original cloth

Note these are almost impossible to detect as firstly they were created with original sewing german mashines used by the german manicaftores, original matherials and in the end, made like back early 60ties so they have the aging as well.

So just to let you know - film stamp means an item with a lot of history, but there are a lot fakes as well, who are not made to decieve, but back in the years to look real in front of the camera

Cheers

[tropenmilitaria]

The fakers know how to make a collector feel confident. They are not looking for the advanced collector to buy their items, they are looking for the ones who want an item but may not have as much knowledge as they think they have, and price it to these collectors at what is considered a fair price, as they know that that GREED will kick in and cloud any common sense.

These 2 statements should be pinned to the top of every "is this real?" thread. Wise words Bob

[Urka]

And to add more tunics I saw had the movie stamp. Believe me looking at 100 LW tunics in a raw is something really nice as they are put like in your home wordrobe and you can spend days lloking each one of it and discovering it.
In Ukraine there was one wardrobe from a film studios with more than 1000 german uniforms from the front.
Some nice SS tunics as well and most were stripped and insignia stored in different place. So when the actor comes, they measure the tunic and put the insignia they need for this specific movie. After that the tunic gets stripped as well.

There are a lot russian movies made in the 60ties with original german tunics.

NOTE people created these tunics are not fraudsters they are normal people working in film studio so they research, look at originals and do their best to make nice costume.

Note this was in communist world so we cannot talk of people wanting more money from collectors market - Hope you understand.

Cheers

[David Fettes]

At the time these smocks first appeared the stamps devalued items instead of making them more expensive and more original.

[RobertE]

Bob, thanks for contributing. The enhancements you described are believable and could add to their perceived value because they relate to the item. Period gum wrappers, coins, regional newspapers, and mock markings are and were used - they support the story of the item. I have seen fake groups items salted with originals and touched up with names and dates - you make an excellent point.

The Soviet marks are just the opposite: hard to explain, NOT known to be in any original piece at the time, unreadable for most western collectors but NOT German, and did not replicate any of the markings that could help fool the novice (SS unit markings, ect).

In short, these wouldn't have been an intriguing addition, but instead a turn-off which is why some are cut out and others obliterated. They hurt the sale.

Putting these markings in the helmets would be like stamping Japanese helmets with VERY obscure Australian inventory markings, in English: their purpose would confuse collectors and wouldn't be in the right language, and would not make it a more attractive "variant" and certainly wouldn't make it more authentic.

s/f Robert

[Marc Shaffer]

I don't know or can't remember if this question has been asked in the thread, but if the stamps in the pink smocks represent a movie prop business or theatre, then I would assume you should see the stamp in other uniforms besides the pink smocks. Any examples of this stamp in other garments besides the pink smock?

[David Fettes]

I don't know or can't remember if this question has been asked in the thread, but if the stamps in the pink smocks represent a movie prop business or theatre, then I would assume you should see the stamp in other uniforms besides the pink smocks. Any examples of this stamp in other garments besides the pink smock?

Yes in post #1110 http://www.therupturedduck.com.hosti...forms/u067.htm