"Pink" smock or not?

[Robert H]

Short, wrong posts condemning potentially good items by closed minded collectors who have "seen it all" is not helpful either.

regards, Robert

But you are the helpful person ...
Never said I have seen it all nor I will ever.
And what is right or wrong I doubt you will be the judge on this matter.

I assume you or some missed the 80's time frame at some German shows when the stuff showed up. But propably someone write pages that is was then a depot find.

[RobertE]

But you are the helpful person ...
Never said I have seen it all nor I will ever.
And what is right or wrong I doubt you will be the judge on this matter.

I assume you or some missed the 80's time frame at some German shows when the stuff showed up. But propably someone write pages that is was then a depot find.

You assume wrong, but that's OK. I intend to stay open minded on the smocks, which your comment didn't seem to indicate..."for me no need to read the post."

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

The name "Minsk-Film" never existed.

I figured out the camo pattern printed on pink smocks.

The pattern has been (quite crudely) copied from Oak-B but its repeat (print-roll single run = in the pic below shown between yellow lines) is longer than original, so they simply added "fantasy" area to the design (see below)

[RobertE]

Thanks, that is value-added. Nice comparison photos between known and unknown pattern types.

The rollers on the print machines (width and run length between repeats) used are unknown, but likely foreign, so it is reasonable the printers would have extended the pattern with similar shapes.

The printers obviously had a standard bolt or sample of the material to roughly replicate the pattern, but they didn't try a line-for-line effort because they were not trying to fool collectors 70+ years down the road. I posted chunks of this material sometime ago to show that the rough patterns comparisons, and they are approximated on the pink type but obviously not intended to perfectly replicate the pattern - like a fake.

Thanks for the illustrations, and your point was well made. I would substitute "fantasy" pattern for "joining pattern" on this graphic, though - but then, I'm on the other side of the fence!

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

Thanks, that is value-added. Nice comparison photos between known and unknown pattern types.

The rollers on the print machines (width and run length between repeats) used are unknown, but likely foreign, so it is reasonable the printers would have extended the pattern with similar shapes.

The printers obviously had a standard bolt or sample of the material to roughly replicate the pattern, but they didn't try a line-for-line effort because they were not trying to fool collectors 70+ years down the road. I posted chunks of this material sometime ago to show that the rough patterns comparisons, and they are approximated on the pink type but obviously not intended to perfectly replicate the pattern - like a fake.

Thanks for the illustrations, and your point was well made. I would substitute "fantasy" pattern for "joining pattern" on this graphic, though - but then, I'm on the other side of the fence!

s/f Robert

For example Norwegian Oak is also longer than original German Oak but Norwegian manufacturer simply stretched out the original (German) design (see below) means they follow original design "line-by-line" (element-by-element) and they did not add any "fantasy area" to it. "Fantasy areas" are often added by post-war "reenactment" companies.

[kammo man]

As DP pointed out printers who repo fabric usually add pieces and new shapes.
Thats across the board in other non German based patterns like Japanese 80s tigers etc.
Its pretty typical as the whole pattern was not seen when copying prints.

One question that stands out.

Why were these odd jackets being made at the end of the war when the 44 dot became the uniform standard?
This last ditch effort has no legs at all.

Beyond weak.

Its fun debating .................
No doubt its funny and some great fantasy theories are thrown out..which are mildly interesting but sadly wrong.

Chris,
Where did you get the only 12 smocks with their original string number from ?
Please answer me that.
Very odd.

[90th Light]

It is indeed an excellent summary into one article of all the blood, sweat and tears of the author but also our forum members and other sources collectively over 35 odd years to examine this interesting (and exciting possibility) item in the realm of the "we have seen it all, we know everything" regarding WSS Camouflage. Its balanced with healthy portions of human intelligence, forensics and scientific study (ongoing) on levels that still impress me and stimulate free thought and learning with each read. I look forward to new levels of information and testing dyes etc. Its really a reminder we have not seen it all and how to harness political bias from damning real genuine objects of history based on improper and incomplete assessment, in the name of fear and $$$.

I do hope however that no one individual with $$ signs in thier eyes will ever attempt to suddenly put it all in a new camo book summarized by everyones work and then claim they discovered all this themselves. This has been an ongoing group effort from both sides of the fence and the middle too and the people watching both gardens and the fence as well at the same time. My guess is when these are finally openly accepted, blessed etc with the scales tipped with even more factual information this may likely occur out of human nature $$$$. I hope if so all sources are named fairly for thier contribution to the study.

Best regards,

Pete

Hello Pete,

The overview I posted in post numbers 1026 and 1027 is written by a collector who is completely independent of WAF in another country in 2013.

He has sat like a judge does in court, read all that has been written, presented and then weighed up the arguments of both sides.

He seems to have an excellent working knowledge of SS camo and access to a good range of wartime smocks for comparison.

I do not think he intends to publish it in anyway. Instead he wrote it as a guide plus summation of the "Pink Smock" for the forum, friends and collectors he is involved with.

All I can say, it is refreshing and encouraging to read a view point that is free of the politics of this thread which does not keep repeating the same thing.

It is also interesting that there are new facts in the summation that go beyond what has already been presented here. This extends plus stimulates new debate and investigation on this thread.

Yesterday I consulted with one of our industrial Chemists at work, an American who has immigrated to New Zealand and is a Vietnam war veteran. He tells me he was also did a tour of duty at the lesser known conflict going on in Panama at the time. Thus he understands how camo works. When I get time I will write what he has finds out about the "Pinks" (Silver Birch ?),

Chris

[David Fettes]

Why were these odd jackets being made at the end of the war when the 44 dot became the uniform standard? This last ditch effort has no legs at all.

Was oakleaf B not made after the 44 Dot came out? If so I suppose it could be possible.

[90th Light]

Chris,
Where did you get the only 12 smocks with their original string number from ?
Please answer me that.
Very odd.

I do not know Owen, he has an advanced collection himself and has access to other advanced collections. It seems to be a "Rule of Thumb" that they have put together based on their research/ experience. However, this now alerts us to a new fact. How many collectors in the world can say with all certainty/ proof that the lace in their beyond doubt SS smock was in that particular smock during WW2 ??? A good point/ question in the matter.

Of course, if it is all wrong as you are now saying then you are more than welcome to counter it with a similar article of the same magnitude. In fact, this is what we are hoping for from you instead of flippant off-the-cuff bullet points.

You can have as much criticism of it as you as you want. Criticism is easy, anyone can do that. However, post numbers 1026 & 1027 sets a bench mark for you to match in your counter arguments, which I doubt you can or write up in a similar fashion,

Chris

[90th Light]

(Pink) camo pattern repeat is highlighted in the picture below,
which is longer than original by the way
but it is not a problem

The problem is that the pattern ("Camo-Picture") does not match the original "Camo-Picture". Al least 95% of elements match on originals. This pattern does not match even half of them. Try to find a match in any original for yourself

Hello DP,

thank you for your work and photos explaining this and showing what you mean over more than one post.

This is both interesting and helpful,

Chris

[90th Light]

One question that stands out.

Why were these odd jackets being made at the end of the war when the 44 dot became the uniform standard?
This last ditch effort has no legs at all.

Michael Beaver's book published by Schiffer 1995, page 215, states that large numbers of SS troops were equipped with camouflage drill uniforms despite the period for wearing such a "warm weather" uniform being 15 March to 1 November each year.

He states; " In December 1944, large number of troops were equipped with camouflage drill uniforms. Close examination of troops during that time reveal an army that was quite heterogeneous in appearance....... The high quality of cotton duck formerly used in production of camouflage uniforms was all but extinct"

M44 drill uniform = "Officially introduced on 1 March 1944"

This raises several questions about the "Pink" (Silver Birch ?) smock and when exactly were they made ?

1/ October to December 1943, well before the introduction of the drill M44 ?

2/ January to March 1944, immediately before the introduction of the drill M44 ?

3/ April to June 1944, immediately after the introduction of the drill M44 ?

4/ July to September 1944, well after the introduction of the drill M44 ?


It is hard to answer this question with precision and we can only speculate. However, we do know that some manufacturers did not follow the issue date and official orders exactly. The M42 helmets made by "Q" to which Doug.B. and other helmet collectors have referred to, being but one example of several German uniform items in this boat. "Q" made the M40 until 1944 and began producing their M42 in 1944. Long after the official introduction of the M42 as per orders.

The "Pink" (Silver Birch ?) smock is made from a rough, highly blended (flax), late war, ersatz cotton duck which certainly shows a period serious shortage of quality material. If the company was up and running in mid-late 1943 and early 1944 (when Speer throw all production capacity that he had at it and the German economy expanded finally reached its P.P.F.) then they would be making smocks. It is not inconceivable that some second model smocks were still being made in March or April 1944. May be even later, depending on how fast factories were geared up to change over to the production from smocks to the new M44 drill uniforms,

Chris

[kammo man]

Jackets came from the factory with the strings in place.
FACT..


Your 12 existing strings in jackets still stands nonsense .


Whats Silver Birch ?

[90th Light]

Jackets came from the factory with the strings in place.
FACT..

Prove it,

The "smocks" came in bales and the "strings" came from separate maker in a box/ packet to the uniform distribution center.

SS Soldier got smock, SS soldier got lace and put the two together,

Chris

"Your 12 existing strings in jackets still stands nonsense" = wrong again, not mine. instead a completely independent advanced collector opinion = second opinion = you wrong

[kammo man]

In 1 case 7 jackets came from 1 US soldiers Dachau haul taken straight off the shelf.
All were different patterns in 42 cut.
All were unworn.
All we're neatly folded.
All had factory strings.

In another case from another US Vet
Mint 42 cut......
String present.

I can go on and on.

But your separate box of string thing is just wrong.
you always just have to win all the time.

No doubt you are the expert on one kind of fake SS camo jacket.
A trip to this years SOS will probably confirm this.
It would do you some good to meet SS cammo collectors in person and to look at some real items so you can compare and contrast your findings.
Hell why not even buy the Pink for sale here you could show off your new piece.

[90th Light]

In 1 case 7 jackets came from 1 US soldiers Dachau haul taken straight off the shelf.
All were different patterns in 42 cut.
All were unworn.
All we're neatly folded.
All had factory strings.

In another case from another US Vet
Mint 42 cut......
String present.

I can go on and on.

But your separate box of string thing is just wrong.
you always just have to win all the time.

No doubt you are the expert on one kind of fake SS camo jacket.
A trip to this years SOS will probably confirm this.
It would do you some good to meet SS cammo collectors in person and to look at some real items so you can compare and contrast your findings.
Hell why not even buy the Pink for sale here you could show off your new piece.

Temper, temper

but again prove, show me period photos of all these smocks the shelfs of Dachau with the laces in them or the vets holding them at the time.

You just simply repeat hearsay or recite collector folklore,

Chris