"Pink" smock or not?

[salt*creek]

I knew Mike Beaver very well and I can tell you that he thought these pink smocks were post war made for a film.
You could go to the great western show and see a dozen for sale.

[90th Light]

I knew Mike Beaver very well and I can tell you that he thought these pink smocks were post war made for a film.
You could go to the great western show and see a dozen for sale.

Well, that may be what Mike Beaver thought, I never got a chance to correspond with him on the subject. However, you would be hard pressed to find a dozen "pinks" for sale at any one time today. And when they do come up for sale, they are quickly sold these days,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

well if what Owen is now saying is in regard to Dr Jean Borsarello then it is rubbish. I corresponded with Dr Borsarello by letter in the late 1980's and early 1990's about the "Pink" smock in his book published by Iso-Galago in 1986.

He fully accepted the "Pink" and even kept referring to a "Type C Oakleaf Pattern". He was the only collector I have encountered to date who had a photo (poloroid) of the bales of "Pinks" when they were found still tied together. I still have the letters.

I can not comment where Mike Beaver stood on the matter because I did not correspond with him. However, it has been my experience with other American authors who publish books on Third Reich uniform items via "Schiffer, to be very careful not to put any thing with controversy in their books. This is regardless of how they personally feel or have experienced the item.

However, if Owen is claiming to represent Dr Borsarello in this matter then he is totally misrepresenting him. Dr Borsarello knew of this find of the "Pink" smocks from when they first emerged and had no hesitation showing/ explaining such a smocks in books authored under his name only,

Chris

Just curious but how many of these "Stinky Pinky's" do you own?



It seems to me that the only true believers are those who own them and are holding on to them for dear life,just hoping that one day they might be accepted as original.




Glenn

[90th Light]

Just curious but how many of these "Stinky Pinky's" do you own?

It seems to me that the only true believers are those who own them and are holding on to them for dear life,just hoping that one day they might be accepted as original.

Glenn

Just one Glenn,

I had the chance 10 years ago to also buy one with the stamps on pocket but foolishly thought one was enough. At the time I did not realise the significance of the stamps, still being hung up on the fact that this was a devaluation factor when it came to these.

I am not holding breath at all about these being accepted or selling for high prices. My children do not like Third Reich items and what they do with such items when I am no longer around is anyone's guess.

No, my interest is one of pure history. I have had mine since the time of the Berlin Wall still being in place. It has always intrigued me as to how, when, what & why. Thus I enjoy the journey of being able to study, research and share information about them.

At the end of the day, I hate seeing a "diamond thrown out with the dirt" just because it is different and does not fit the very narrow realm of what collectors accept today as "text-book" in an internet way. The Germans made 100's & 1000's of some uniform items. However, collectors today have only ever seen a fraction of what was made at the time. A small sample or window only of what was made. We were just saying the other day here in NZ, how many tropical M40 cap makers do we not know or have not seen an example of. Of all the 1000's of tropical caps made, how many still survive in collections today. Why should SS items be any different as to what we know and do not know,

The "Pinks" are something no collector knows for sure. Advanced or novice are all on the same playing field & level with these. Thus all we can study in depth is how they are made, from what and talk to those who saw the find at a time. A time when no other reproduction SS smock on earth came even close to this quality of real 101% smocks,

Chris

[phild]

Just curious but how many of these "Stinky Pinky's" do you own?

It seems to me that the only true believers are those who own them and are holding on to them for dear life,just hoping that one day they might be accepted as original.


Glenn

I own just one and in so far as any monetary value either as a loss or gain I could not give a flying flip if they are original or not, but I am interested in the determining the TRUTH either way.

I have never met either NickG or Chris and I have no hidden reasons to champion a fan club for either gentleman or do I need to defend them as their credentials in collecting speaks for itself, but I would like to know when in the history of this forum has there been a more reasoned, objective and analytical posting on any type of uniform item than they have provided on these smocks over the last 3 or 4 pages of postings? For that matter that observation would be applicable to them and a few others, over the all of the threads and postings on these smocks.

The other side has in fact been the position of emotion, lack of true evidence (difference in and of itself is not evidence of anything regardless of the object being analyzed) and IMO the position taken to support an agenda....not the other way around.

As far as the number that I have seen over the last 10 years or so at the largest US shows. (MAX and SOS) ......I'd say with contemplation that I have seen an average of between one and two a show maximum, often not even seeing one.

Perhaps the most superficial of all of the feeble arguments that have been put forth by the nay sayers is this bit about what has and what has not been included in the "best" reference books and therefore what is real and what is not. This is a subject for another 500 posts, but it is a fact that even in the best reference books many great and real variations are omitted because they are not understood by the authors and group of contributors of the book or simply too controversial to stake a position on at the time.

[kammo man]

Let's talk about the herring bone pockets

[kammo man]

And in addition to the why not question, (why not possible)
another question...
Why do these exist?
Not to fool collectors...they are too early...from a period where fakes were low quality Items barely resembling period pieces.... later super fakes (museum replicas) are from a much more recent period...these pinks are different...
-Made way too well for them to be movie props...
-appearing with what we now know are late 40's USSR inventory stamps
-non have movie property stamps
-all made identically, same run with war time techniques and 1940 materials just different...(Maker variant)
Now the problem areas:
Not text book...not based on known patterns. Well these were never issued, never combat captured and not a known pattern for that reason...
(Like the Norwegian SS parkas)....Just an east block variant that made its way west...
Accurate replicas as we know are usually coming from the West, especially in the early days.
In the east they used original gear (for movies) such as Statni...think about it. It just does not add up...
Btw I do like cool aid! But such remarks does not help counter argumenting the possible/probable authenticity of these I'm afraid...

They exist to fool collectors Nick

[NickG]

They exist to fool collectors Nick

That means Owen that you believe that the recently discovered stamps are fake,
a hoax ...made to fool...
And that these smocks therefor are not as old as what the stamps would indicate...(late 40's or so...)
a clever forgery...???
So why aren't these stamps found in most of them ? and why are identical stamps also discovered in genuine text book smocks recently? Why would a fake stamp be put in a real smock? a stamp that no one really understood to begin with?
It is not like fake Statni Czech movie prop stamps....or fake museum inventory stamps...those do exist as we all know...this is different and to me a significant recent discovery...
Just saying...to me the stamps found are hard evidence that these are old and from a time that fooling collectors was not prevalent...let's say within a decade after the war ended...even the materials, albeit not totally text book are from that period...These are not SM Wholesale grade garments...that is obvious! These are very old...way before Steve (and others) started reenactment supplies business...
and stored a long time and many had rodent damage...stored unprotected in bales...not something a faker would do...he would protect his investment...

[Glenn McInnes]

Let's talk about the herring bone pockets

I know I saw a very similar material used behind the pocket flaps of a fake W-SS M43 tunic,kind of a cotton HBT material if I remember right.

I did look at one of these pink smocks that a local collector had...I don't collect SS camo but I found the elastics in these to be very "elastic" like they were fairly new and I remember the odd HBT material.

These threads will just go on and on and on...The believers against the non believers...So how much longer do we let these type of threads go on for?

Rock solid proof is what is needed,a period photo of one being worn perhaps, but after 35 odd years of these being on the market I think that is unlikely to happen.





Glenn

[Dennis S]

I don't think any of these threads should be closed......look at the hits they get.
I understand they become frustrating for some but It keeps the forum lively......and sometimes entertaining. Of course , it needs to remain civil.

Even though they seem to go nowhere at times. A lot of useful information is posted that is unknown by others like the Norwegian SS camo and good photos of leber pattern camo.

[phild]

Let's talk about the herring bone pockets

OK, what about them?


They have been detailed by several collectors in a number of other posts. It was clearly established in those posts that HBT identical to these pockets or certainly similar to the point of being nearly undistinguishable from these was made and used during WWII.

The HBT used in these pockets is made in total or a large degree from flax (linen) rather than cotton. For lack of a better way to put it, this material is rougher and less refined that most uniform HBT found used for WWII era German uniforms. As pocket bags this heavier HBT is probably superior to the lighter weight HBT. Why anyone would think the an item made far outside of Germany during WWII would incorporate German made material ....is beyond me.....but this same old tired argument keeps getting dug up. HBT......so what?

Also several of these smocks that I looked at in 1981 had weak or broken elastic......but I guess like the cut out and inked out stamps that was also in many of these THEN, that was all part of the clever ruse as well.....Right? Right!

[Glenn McInnes]

I don't think any of these threads should be closed......look at the hits they get.
I understand they become frustrating for some but It keeps the forum lively......and sometimes entertaining. Of course , it needs to remain civil.

Even though they seem to go nowhere at times. A lot of useful information is posted that is unknown by others like the Norwegian SS camo and good photos of leber pattern camo.

Yes,lots of hits but it is usually the same back and forth arguments between the 2 sides.

It is easy to explain away a fake with comments like,they did this and they did that or it looks like this or it looks like that, but I could never understand why someone would want to own something like this.

Either it is accepted by all collectors as original or it is not...What would you rather own?





Glenn

[phild]

Yes,lots of hits but it is usually the same back and forth arguments between the 2 sides.

It is easy to explain away a fake with comments like,they did this and they did that or it looks like this or it looks like that, but I could never understand why someone would want to own something like this.

Either it is accepted by all collectors as original or it is not...What would you rather own?





Glenn

I understand where you are coming from and there is a bases of reason there, but I would submit that it is just as easy (really easier) to explain away an original variation as a fake as it is the other way that you stated. I personally believe that it exactly what it going on with these and we have seen this with several other types of items on WAF that have needed up being proven original.....the Heer Officers M43 cap comes to mind, but there have been other items as well.

Collectors want these if they can be established as period originals and more
so if their "story" is ever discovered.

The stamp revelation from a few years ago is a tremendous plus to their originality.

These stamps were in these smocks (many of them) when they arrived in Austria and Germany 1980/81. That is a fact and anyone who says otherwise is lying and that is all that I need to know about their character, I really don't; care about any so-called expertise that they may have. If they are not men of their word and therefore their thoughts on anything are of no use to me.

NickG made one statement about these in a post a few page back that I take SLIGHT disagreement with and that is that ALL of this run of smocks were the same.....that is little off in that there were two slight variation of these. I did not find this out until about 10 years ago....but the variation is this: most were made with the third center seam applied to the foliage loop sets, but some had this omitted.....actually this is just like the variations that are found in the German M42 type 1 smocks. This proves nothing about their originality, but it is a point of interest and makes no sense in explaining these as fakes or movie props. ALL collectors have to understand that in 1980 the ONLY references on SS camo and smocks were Bender and Mollo......go look at those books and tell me what you learn about M42 Type 1's or really anything else about SS camo!

[phild]

Chris,
Nobody is discrediting your countrymen here. We had a few guys from my country that fought in that same war....probably even built your tanks....
I've seen those caps before. Over the internet they look good.
The one on the right is Oak B, the other hat and zeltbahn is Oak A.
Look at the thin black full circles surrounding the camo dots. that is oak B.

The pink camo pattern is wrong and the colors are reversed in places. We all know the color is strange.

We all know that many of the "textbook" SS camo patterns are nothing more than modifications, omissions and simplifications of other SS camo patterns.

Somehow when looking at the adaption used to print this material it seems for some at least that these changes are beyond comprehension for a period variation.

One aspect to these is beyond debate and that is that this M42 style (more so with triple sewn loops and hand sewn lace eyelets) required much more work and much more material (about one third more!) than the simpler cheaper to make but far more valuable pre M42 variations.

Why anyone picked this model to fake or to use for a film prop is just one of many questions that nay sayers do not address.

[Glenn McInnes]

I understand where you are coming from and there is a bases of reason there, but I would submit that it is just as easy (really easier) to explain away an original variation as a fake as it is the other way that you stated. I personally believe that it exactly what it going on with these and we have seen this with several other types of items on WAF that have needed up being proven original.....the Heer Officers M43 cap comes to mind, but there have been other items as well.

Collectors want these if they can be established as period originals and more
so if their "story" is ever discovered.

Okay,so find a period photo of this type of smock being worn like I did with the variant Heer officer M43's,then you will have all of the "proof" that you need.





Regards
Glenn