"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

No respect due to me at all, Owen! My point is not that they are identical, but that zelts and other field camo was suitably durable to be issued to the Waffen SS for field use. Thin, thick, coarse, or blended, materials of all breeds were used.

When comparing the smocks under discussion with wartime SS camo, it is at least as good of quality. Definately not inferior. That's my point.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

I see now.!!!!

o

[phild]

Owen, I don't know where the notion of this being inferior material is coming from. The smocks under discussion are not made of inferior material - it feels and behaves like zelt or helmet cover material.

As Phild has repeatedly stated, this smock is not attempting to look like the accepted, German produced varieties. It doesn't have the same print, HBT, minor cut details, or other features.

But it is not cheap, inferior material. It is on par with other original German outer wear uniforms I own.

regards, Robert

Exactly right Robert. There are a number of accepted smock patterns and variation runs within patterns that all accept that there are no known zelt or helmet cover counterparts for, these are discussed in Beaver and elsewhere.

What the bigger point is here that you also touch on is that it is well documented in Mollo (original memos) and in Beaver that by 1942 the SS (Pohl) was unable to meet the demand to provide smocks to it's divisions due to the shortage of duck fabric......you must consider that within a year to 18 months of that date (mid42) the W-SS would almost triple in size as well......meaning that to re-fit about 8 divisions every year and then to initially fit another 16 or so divisions being raised by the end of 43......was impossible to provide the duck cloth......this is very documented by Pohl. He recommends, actually insists that the SS must turn to OTHER materials (other than duck) for smocks IF they stand a chance of being able to provide duck zelts to the COMBAT troops alone. HBT was one of the alternative smock materials....I now believe that there was at least one more.

People can howl and scream all day about how different and poorer the pink smock material is when compared to zelt quality duck (which also varied in quality during the war), but they can not deny that it is at least as good as the fabric being used by the Heer during that time for it''s smocks and by both the SS and Heer (SS a little later than 42-43) for the ALL of the shell fabric of its winter camo clothing.
The most important thing is it was available...apparently.

Also everyone makes a big deal about water shedding properties on the zelt duck used for smocks. I don't understand why that is such a plus for the smock (I do for the zelt !!!) i promise that even if water proof the smock would not keep a solder dry in any semi-serious rain.....I promise that. Also this heavy tight material can be very hot to wear.

The fact that this is not duck is just why they were made to begin with......THERE WAS NOT enough duck to go around to be used for smocks in late 42-43 and thereafter....not a theory here but very well documented. alternate sources were sought and I believe these pink smocks are a case of it being found.

The exact width if these bolts were slightly different (see Chris's post on this from a few weeks back I think and I have measured it as well) than the spec German duck so German plants were not modified.....but other facilities was adapted with the pink smock pattern extension to print the fabric and execute the fabrication using German stitching and cutting specs to go by......Germans also sent them about 5,000-10,000 buttons from their salvaged clothing depots to use on the pockets.

The front line dismounted combat troops of a division could be taken care of with about 5000 smocks.....perhaps there were enough of this material found to outfit one or two divisions in say late 42 or early 43.

[Fritz]

I am out of this.

Cheers

[SJP]

Exactly right Robert. There are a number of accepted smock patterns and variation runs within patterns that all accept that there are no known zelt or helmet cover counterparts for, these are discussed in Beaver and elsewhere.

What the bigger point is here that you also touch on is that it is well documented in Mollo (original memos) and in Beaver that by 1942 the SS (Pohl) was unable to meet the demand to provide smocks to it's divisions due to the shortage of duck fabric......you must consider that within a year to 18 months of that date (mid42) the W-SS would almost triple in size as well......meaning that to re-fit about 8 divisions every year and then to initially fit another 16 or so divisions being raised by the end of 43......was impossible to provide the duck cloth......this is very documented by Pohl. He recommends, actually insists that the SS must turn to OTHER materials (other than duck) for smocks IF they stand a chance of being able to provide duck zelts to the COMBAT troops alone. HBT was one of the alternative smock materials....I now believe that there was at least one more.

People can howl and scream all day about how different and poorer the pink smock material is when compared to zelt quality duck (which also varied in quality during the war), but they can not deny that it is at least as good as the fabric being used by the Heer during that time for it''s smocks and by both the SS and Heer (SS a little later than 42-43) for the ALL of the shell fabric of its winter camo clothing.
The most important thing is it was available...apparently.

Also everyone makes a big deal about water shedding properties on the zelt duck used for smocks. I don't understand why that is such a plus for the smock (I do for the zelt !!!) i promise that even if water proof the smock would not keep a solder dry in any semi-serious rain.....I promise that. Also this heavy tight material can be very hot to wear.

The fact that this is not duck is just why they were made to begin with......THERE WAS NOT enough duck to go around to be used for smocks in late 42-43 and thereafter....not a theory here but very well documented. alternate sources were sought and I believe these pink smocks are a case of it being found.
W
The exact width if these bolts were slightly different (see Chris's post on this from a few weeks back I think and I have measured it as well) than the spec German duck so German plants were not modified.....but other facilities was adapted with the pink smock pattern extension to print the fabric and execute the fabrication using German stitching and cutting specs to go by......Germans also sent them about 5,000-10,000 buttons from their salvaged clothing depots to use on the pockets.

The front line dismounted combat troops of a division could be taken care of with about 5000 smocks.....perhaps there were enough of this material found to outfit one or two divisions in say late 42 or early 43.

Mr Phild, If your not in sales you missed a good calling.

Cheers Steve

[kammo man]

No doubt ...........
But like something you would want to buy you can simply close the door saying "No thank you ...........see you some other time"
Could not sell it to me even with that well thought out speech.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

I have been following this thread with interest...I do believe that there are some war time items that will surface and that they, maybe , do not conform to the regular war tiem configurations that we know are 100% for sure....

Yet the idea of post war made items that closely reasembel WWII but were made bay another nation.....its quite real as well, and maybe those items remain in stock piles forgoten in cold war warehouses....and are old, yes, but not war time made....

A lot of nations reused WWII german camo and made some items similar in pattern or cut....Now if we get photo evidence maybe we can say yes this pink is WWII used or post war made and just surfaced.......who knows....

the question can still be argued both ways.....and now its really up to the evidence at hand........

[kammo man]

Again,

Philid ..........

Get a test done in a lab .


Kammo-man.

[phild]

Again,

Philid ..........

Get a test done in a lab .


Kammo-man.

Easier said than done. I have no idea where to start (web search I suppose) and I have no intention of having my one example cut up for the sample material. As Fritz said even if ( I think when) every sample of material comes back as wartime consistent, the people who reject these now will do so then....it will convince no one who already has their mind made up.......just as the stamps did not nor the post that Leroy made a couple of days ago. I fully believe that phots will come forth of these being worn and they will be clear enough to absolutly reconize. I also fully believe that many who give these thumbs down will continue to do so when those are posted. I really don't care to convince anyone any longer and after Leroy's post I am satisfied.Lots of mistakes have been made in how these smocks were evaluated and lots of face needs to be saved by a good many experts.....they will fight to the bitter end to insist that they were right regardless of the evidence.

I'm very satisfied as to their originality. I've owned Mollo's SS "Volumne 7" for 30 years (40 year old book now) and read it cover to cover at least a dozen times.....recently on time 13 I guess, the part from Pohl looking for alternate material for smocks (other than duck) and stating that drill quantities might not be enough in time....all in 42-43 smacked me in face.

Your big issue with these has always been that the fabric is not German duck and that the German's would not use this "inferior" in SS smocks. Well, Pohl essentially states that not only would they (the SS) be willing to use something like this fabric, they were seeking it out and they were seeking it at the exact timeframe that the model and type variation that these smocks are patterened would have been made.

You (Owen) fancy yourself a very knowledgable person on cloth and particulary camo and that may be true, but I am no idiot on German unforms myself. I figured out a couple of things when I first examined these (and bought one of them) in Germany in 1981.....and one of those things was this: The seams and all sewing (like the pocket attachment, neck band attachemnt and loop attacehment) had existed on these garmets for a long long time prior to 1981.....I could tell and so could many others who had handled a lot of old and new uniforms and other clothing.....and knew what to reconize. Could I say that the age (then) was from 43 and not 53....no I could not, but I did know that these had been made to wear and NOT to appear in a movie...and I still know that.

We can all find our way and agree to disagree. I again want to thank Robert, Pete, Chris, Leroy and many others for their contributions to the subject it has been a big help for me and I appreciate Fritz and Owen and others for their posts even if I disagree with their opinion on these.

[pete]

.

What i would ask now is for the people who have more stamps to show or access to stamps at home please don't hold back, as we know now about the Lenfilm and the other stamps which are on the Smock Phild provided may not even be Lenfilm but another film studio or museum involved too. For me though, if that with Lenfilm 1947 Mod etc is confirmed further for the sake of 3 years 1945-1947 that would be enough to convince me and in relation to materials being used, possibly used or unknown in context of the historical data with what was actually happening combat wise and to do with logistics. I actually predict now the price on these will go up or you wont see any for sale for a while. So, Please post what you have or try and get it. The second is those of you who have already said you are trying to get a lab involved what is the status on that? And, we would need more the one lab as well likely so more then one set of results can be cross referenced. And any other info such as the HBT etc. Please the people who have told me they have seen other items with the same stamps post those and those who have contacts in Russia, please don't stop at the last email. Lets see the Duck hunter camo, track down who you sold it to etc. We have to keep going forward. Its nice to see now everybody is interested in a test too.

Pete

[A c h t u n g !]

Original Russian movie studios stamps would indeed have been a very convincing argument. Does anyone have a picture of just one example - such stamp on a 'pink' smock?

[pete]

We have an inked out stamp etc....with 2 other stamps on it, which are also on known good dot pants which just have the 2 other stamps not the film /or as we were told theater) stamp. You could end up likely with both film and theater stamps on these, not film alone. Many posts you can go back to, and items with stamps of a very similar design and also inked out etc and on known good items. Again the first stamp is from 10 years well before anybody saw any stamps as per norm, and at a time when fakers did not do that as there would be a reverse effect at work.

The more it goes and I am pretty much convinced now, I would not be entirely surprised if this is actually an unknown item, unknown material etc. How exciting.

Pete

[Felix]

In recent days some further information has come forward, that is very interesting. Leroys report about Flochs comments of today, when he has nothing to loose on telling the truth, because the smock has been "considered" fake for some years, is telling. Quite interesting.

The other report about these smocks being tracked down to Lenfilm is also interesting. Old hersay some might say, but it is atleast as valid as other rumours about this smock being an Austrian made fake, or a British made fake. The both latter are hearsay without a question.
Certainly worthy of further investigation. If they indeed can be tracked down to old Lenfilm stocks as early as 1947 that makes a very strong case.

Ok, it is known that the burden of prof lies with the one claiming an item is original. We know that.

I have always kept a neutral opinion about these, but certainly the recent info points in the direction of the positive kind.

Many has contributed, and given good arguments from both sides. Though I feel Phild's arguments are a bit hard to shoot a hole in just like that. Petes contribution with stamps is also interesting.

Heavy weight camo experts ( I mean knowledge wise ) like Kammo man and Fritz certainly has very valuable comments that can not be neglected (and should never be because of their top level knowledge) But what about if this is a different smock and cant really be compared with the ones that are known originals? I am not the devils lawyer, but just food for thought.

If we have come so far that a chemical test is the only way, is hard to say. The fact that you dont know what to compare with makes it very hard to use. What will such a test actually say? How should it be interpreted?

Cheers and thanks
//Felix

[Dr. Strangelove]

Motive

Leroys report about Flochs comments of today, when he has nothing to loose on telling the truth, because the smock has been "considered" fake for some years, is telling.
//Felix

Floch has 500 of them left, plenty of motive! Just kidding

[kammo man]

Felix ,
Nice thoughtful response.
Very well worded.


I personally feel there is NO need for the test but other members are calling for it.

Lets play both sides here.

Option 1 .

The test is done and it comes back the cotton was "picked" in the summer of 1943 to make the jackets .......
And the dye was mixed in 1944.
The thread was made in 1941.
The linen in the pockets was 43.
Ink on stamps made in 45.

well its a case closed No brainer. the jacket is WWII manufacture.

Option 2 .


The test comes back that the cotton was "picked" in the summer of 1976.
The dye was mixed in 1978.
The thread was made in 1971.
The linen in the pockets was 1969.
Ink on stamps made in1977.

Case closed no brainer the jacket is a ground up fake made to fool collectors .

Its a roll of the dice ..............

Like I said before the "pinkies " holds very little in common with a war time made garment .they are just to cookie cutter for me.
Real garments all have a very rushed feel to them.
As do most utilitarian war time uniform items.

And still there are the helmet covers in this pattern that are way worse than the "Italian" knockoffs of late.

Oh and one more thing ..........

Original SS camouflage garments just talk to you if they are real.
A pink is like a fart when compared to a Hand Screened 1-2 over print with mis- matched arms .....winter cammo loops sewn on the summer side , with matched buttons on both sides in both tan and green colors complete with it original string.

something I have never seen on a "pinkie".

owen