"Pink" smock or not?

[nutmeg]

Let's stick to the discussion of smocks

[hs132]

Hello Glenn,

the problem with "HBT" is that they were making it before the 1940's and the have kept making it after the 1940's. It comes in all shapes and sizes. However, one observation that the "textle guys" who I consulted made, the HBT used in the "Pinks" is made from the same ersatz material (in manufacture footprints) as the lining in a 101% Dachau Panzer M43 cap or even the field grey versions. The only difference is the gauge of the thread used to weave the cloth. They have used a thicker gauge than the beyond doubt Dachau M43's. This would of course give the HBT used in the "Pinks" more strength and wearing age with metal and rough objects placed in the pockets.

I think it is worth keeping this thread open provided people (me included) remain civil, new information is emerging. I said in an earlier post that some members who do not post have sent me information about what is inside the smocks and the composition materials they are made from. You asked a question about the elastic used. This question or point is raised time and time again. Well, lets lay the myth about white post-war elastic to rest. In the top image below is a photo of what you will find if you cut a "Pink" smock open. You will see that it is war-time German or Austrian grey/black type elastic. Exactly like you would find used for the strap of certain pairs of German WW2 goggles and even later to late war LW flying goggles for example.

Another thing this member rightly raised with me, the amount of "white-misprint" found on these "Pink" smocks. This was something never seen in the 1970's or 1980's. For a long time until the 2000's this was seen as a very good sign of an original cotton duck made before May 1945. It might be that fakers have worked that out now but not then. The lower image clearly shows what he sent me.

I will stop for now Glenn but I have more findings and results of study to add,

Chris

Hello 90th Light. I believe you have made a mistake in stating the Pinks elastic waist band material is "exacty" the same as Luftwaffe issued goggle band material in post #964, second paragraph. Luftwaffe goggle bands early, mid, late and "late war"(N&G 4th) dont't look like this at all. Here is a recent thread on our fine Luft forum showing a few of the 50 or so others referanced there. Here is your pic of the pinks waist band material. Im open to fresher info though.
I can't speak for the rest of the 3rd Reich however. Best, Bill Bourque
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=837279

[90th Light]

Hi Chris

Your doing great work on the brick smocks But to bring up "Fury" on this thread is not helping your case. While the WAF may gangbang on Fury, the public think otherwise. Fury is a great movie from the general public's point of view with over 85% that viewed it, liked it & over 211 million in $

The ss final attack does resemble the zulu's final attack, in that both are imagination from Hollywood

Tim,

I can but repeat what the historian said.

" So many great, real stories to tell of Shermans in WW2, an opportunuity lost "

and I do actually have a poster for that movie on the wall along with quite a few others war movie posters that I collect .

I praised the movie on the specific WAF thread dedicated to it, and then defended it by drawing a comparison with Audie Murphy's exploits in WW2. However that has bought me nothing but criticism/ abuse from those who strongly disagree and even some who did agree.

However, if I was not being told to put a picture of Owen wearing his "Birch" ("Pink") on my war-room wall then may-be it would not have brought to mind what is on my wall.

I said to Owen some posts back, give up on the insults and if he can not take it then stop dishing it out. Lets focus on the topic of the thread. That was what I was trying to do before being told to put his picture on my wall which is of no relevance to this thread. How else can it be viewed than nothing more than taking trying to take the piss out of my arguments, if not feebly trying to set me up.

I have put a lot of time and effort into actually taking pictures of my "Birch" ("Pink") smock, detail by detail, point by point and posting on more than one thread here on WAF about them.

I am happy to pay my subscription and be a member of this forum. I have learnt the hard way that posting images via the back door is not the way to do it. Paying the WAF sub is a good investment which reminds me, it is now due.

I have gone and seen any person who might be able to help us here which involves, petrol, time, effort. I have researched anything and everything I can find of relevance on the subject.

I fail to see how studying SS smocks from 1938- 1942 is going to help me understand a unique smock like the "Birch" ("Pink"). That would be like making a study of 1940/ 41 billed tropical caps to try and explain the idiosyncrasies of a specific 1943/ 44 billed tropical cap by an unknown maker or a 1940 Luger to compared and explain a 1942 "black widow" Luger.

All I am asking is that those who oppose my views for whatever reason, equally put up as many facts, show photos and discuss detail like I am trying to do. Thus both sides can constructively understand, discuss and go forward in this study.

And I am only too happy to stay on topic and discuss things in a civil fashion, if others can also stay on topic and discuss in a objective/ polite manner.

I know only too well, one earns respect in any matter but rarely commands it by the mere expression of their own self importance because they feel they have the right to try and dominate,

Chris

p.s. the 1964 film "Zulu" is accurately based on a real historical battle and final attack, right down to the names.

[nutmeg]

Chris, clean you message box

Tim,

I can but repeat what the historian said.

" So many great, real stories to tell of Shermans in WW2, an opportunuity lost "

and I do actually have a poster for that movie on the wall along with quite a few others war movie posters that I collect .

I praised the movie on that WAF thread and then defended it by drawing a comparison with Audie Murphy's exploits in WW2. However that has bought me nothing but criticism from those who strongly disagree.

However, if I was not being told to put a picture of Owen wearing his "Birch" ("Pink") on my war-room wall then may-be it would not have brought to mind what is on my wall.

I said to Owen some posts back, give up on the insults and if he can not take it then stop dishing it out. Lets focus on the topic of the thread and that was what I was trying to do before being told to put his picture on my wall which is nothing more than taking trying to take the piss out of my arguements.

I have put a lot of time and effort into actually taking pictures of my "Birch" ("Pink") smock, detail by detail. Point by point and posting on more than one thread about them.

I am happy to pay my subscription and be a member of this forum. I have learnt the hard way that posting images via the back door is not the way to do it. Paying the WAF sub is a good investment which reminds me, it is now due.

I have gone and seen any person who might be able to help us here which involves, petrol, time, effort. I have researched anything and everything I can find of relevance on the subject.

I fail to see how studying SS smocks from 1938- 1942 is going to help me understand a unique smock like the "Birch" ("Pink") That would be like making a study of 1940/ 41 billed tropical caps to try and explain the idiosyncrasies of a specific 1943/ 44 billed tropical cap by an unknown maker or a 1940 Luger to compared and explain a 1942 "black widow" Luger.

All I am asking is that those who oppose my views for whatever reason, equally put up as many facts, show photos and discuss detail like I am trying to do. Thus both sides can constructively understand, discuss and go forward in this study.

And I am only too happy to stay on topic and discuss things in a civil fashion, if others can also stay on topic and discuss in a objective/ polite manner.

I know only too well that one earns respect in any matter but rarely commands it by the mere expression of their own self importance because they feel they have the right to try and dominate,

Chris

[kammo man]

Tim,

I can but repeat what the historian said.

" So many great, real stories to tell of Shermans in WW2, an opportunuity lost "

and I do actually have a poster for that movie on the wall along with quite a few others war movie posters that I collect .

I praised the movie on the specific WAF thread dedicated to it, and then defended it by drawing a comparison with Audie Murphy's exploits in WW2. However that has bought me nothing but criticism/ abuse from those who strongly disagree and even some who did agree.

However, if I was not being told to put a picture of Owen wearing his "Birch" ("Pink") on my war-room wall then may-be it would not have brought to mind what is on my wall.

I said to Owen some posts back, give up on the insults and if he can not take it then stop dishing it out. Lets focus on the topic of the thread and that was what I was trying to do before being told to put his picture on my wall which is nothing more than taking trying to take the piss out of my arguements.

I have put a lot of time and effort into actually taking pictures of my "Birch" ("Pink") smock, detail by detail. Point by point and posting on more than one thread about them.

I am happy to pay my subscription and be a member of this forum. I have learnt the hard way that posting images via the back door is not the way to do it. Paying the WAF sub is a good investment which reminds me, it is now due.

I have gone and seen any person who might be able to help us here which involves, petrol, time, effort. I have researched anything and everything I can find of relevance on the subject.

I fail to see how studying SS smocks from 1938- 1942 is going to help me understand a unique smock like the "Birch" ("Pink") That would be like making a study of 1940/ 41 billed tropical caps to try and explain the idiosyncrasies of a specific 1943/ 44 billed tropical cap by an unknown maker or a 1940 Luger to compared and explain a 1942 "black widow" Luger.

All I am asking is that those who oppose my views for whatever reason, equally put up as many facts, show photos and discuss detail like I am trying to do. Thus both sides can constructively understand, discuss and go forward in this study.

And I am only too happy to stay on topic and discuss things in a civil fashion, if others can also stay on topic and discuss in a objective/ polite manner.

I know only too well that one earns respect in any matter but rarely commands it by the mere expression of their own self importance because they feel they have the right to try and dominate,

Chris

This type of post is so embarrassing and insightful it boggles the mind.


owen

[90th Light]

Hello 90th Light. I believe you have made a mistake in stating the Pinks elastic waist band material is "exacty" the same as Luftwaffe issued goggle band material in post #964, second paragraph. Luftwaffe goggle bands early, mid, late and "late war"(N&G 4th) dont't look like this at all. Here is a recent thread on our fine Luft forum showing a few of the 50 or so others referanced there. Here is your pic of the pinks waist band material. Im open to fresher info though.
I can't speak for the rest of the 3rd Reich however. Best, Bill Bourque
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=837279

Hello Bill,

yes you are right. In my haste, I wrote LW goggles. Upon reflection and looking more into it, I should have just said general purpose goggles especially late war like dust/ driving googles.

However, here is what we do know;

"elastic brick of brown smocks are different from waist elastics other smocks WSS"

False. Testing elastic smocks extracted from these reflect that its construction is consistent with the elastic manufactured prior to 1945. It has even been able to identify the brand. The relevant question is whether they are German. However, one can safely say that even if they were not Germans, they come from somewhere inside the Reich.

Chris

[nutmeg]

I had a long talk with Bruce Herman who I bought my planetree from. He said the 4 he had were the last four Tony had. He said Tony had MANY more that he had sold previously. We don't know if that had Russian markings as well. We'll have to see if members here have one.

[90th Light]

This type of post is so embarrassing and insightful it boggles the mind.


owen

Like a lack of COA's related to the subject to show,

Chris

[kammo man]

I had a long talk with Bruce Herman who I bought my planetree from. He said the 4 he had were the last four Tony had. He said Tony had MANY more that he had sold previously. We don't know if that had Russian markings as well. We'll have to see if members here have one.

Shame ,
Last I heard he was living in his car.

[NZMark]

Nick,
Well done in finding and posting the Spanish blog. Reasoned, rational and un-biased summation.
I await a similar, point-by-point dissertation by those with the opposing view.
Mark
NZ

[nutmeg]

Nick,
Well done in finding and posting the Spanish blog. Reasoned, rational and un-biased summation.
I await a similar, point-by-point dissertation by those with the opposing view.
Mark
NZ

It was very good, I wonder if he is a aware of the discovery of the marking in the Planetree and Palm smocks?

[90th Light]

Nick,
Well done in finding and posting the Spanish blog. Reasoned, rational and un-biased summation.
I await a similar, point-by-point dissertation by those with the opposing view.
Mark
NZ

Mark,

it is interesting that this thread about tropical trousers has some of the issues about the type of materials used later in the war as the "Birch" smocks do;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=836276

I think Ray sums up nicely the challenge facing collectors today;

Would like to add that we have seen a spectrum of this signature material from a tight coarse durable texture to a soft sparse weave as both examples illustrate. Also on thicker to thinner gauge fabric.

Have this on other garments in my collection as well (FD smock, Heer camo helmet cover etc.) but assert predominately resigns from the properties of tropical clothing.

BTW, does anyone know what this material is actually referred to? It is a species of gabardine but has little specks within the twills that gives it a coarse denim texture unlike strait-up pure gabardine (see the difference between the 2 hats posted). I once read a description quoted as a subtle gabardine weave.

-Ray-

Chris

[David Fettes]

Can I just ask a quick question please?

if you place three or four Luftwaffe drillich tunics and trousers together you will be very very lucky to have them all a match for the colour. Be it oatmeal or green.

The same goes for Heer drillich tunics and trousers. I have also seen a vast range of colours on normal wool tunics as well.

With this in mind, is there any reason why the drill pockets have to be an exact match?

Are the pockets on all non M42 pink / birch / brick smocks identical? Same colour exactly?

Just asking those who would know.


.

[RobertE]

Can I just ask a quick question please?

if you place three or four Luftwaffe drillich tunics and trousers together you will be very very lucky to have them all a match for the colour. Be it oatmeal or green.

The same goes for Heer drillich tunics and trousers. I have also seen a vast range of colours on normal wool tunics as well.

With this in mind, is there any reason why the drill pockets have to be an exact match?

Are the pockets on all non M42 pink / birch / brick smocks identical? Same colour exactly?

Just asking those who would know.


.

No, they absolutely are not the exact same shade of pocket material.

s/f Robert

[Patty D]

According to Floch, when he purchased them they already had the stamps on them. 50 - 60 at least maybe a few more, the rest had no stamps. Most of the brick smocks with stamps were the loose ones, while the ones in bundles were not stamped. This has been stated a couple times now in this epic thread.

If this is true then it explains what I was getting at before as to one of the reasons why they're not all stamped. It's likely the company didn't need the whole lot (for expected use, or whatever reason) so took a few out of the bales (the good condition ones?) and those were inventory stamped - hence why they later became the "loose ones" as stated above and weren't part of the bales.

Of the ones that were badly damaged - do these have stamps in or are they only found in the intact examples??