SS JULELEUCHTER Opinion please

[Vid]

Don't see any red flags with the Julleuchter from Gerard.
I am very happy about the Julleuchter I received from my uncle this year.
This one came out from his moms husband who served in the SS Polizei Div. After some eximinations it shows some nice details from the inside, but of course variants are out.

Robert,

No disrespect, but how can you make that call? I could easily dispute it but dont want to post the details either.

It looks like a repro. allach1@cox.net

[Robert H]

Hello Vid,

which call you mean, regarding the Leuchter from Gerard?
As I said before, they never can show always the same details.
And I don't make a call, it is my opinion and thats all about. Regarding my family Julleuchter I just would like to mention that is one has one production detail inside that I never have seen on another one. But we all know they got different "Produktionsstaetten" and enough originals have survived.

[Vid]

Hello Vid,

which call you mean, regarding the Leuchter from Gerard?
As I said before, they never can show always the same details.
And I don't make a call, it is my opinion and thats all about. Regarding my family Julleuchter I just would like to mention that is one has one production detail inside that I never have seen on another one. But we all know they got different "Produktionsstaetten" and enough originals have survived.

Robert,

Yes, I mean Gerard's. You have basically stated you see no problems, which I consider to be an endorsement.

I see a problem and requested other pictures as there are several ways to skin this cat, unfortunately domino's and the marking are neither of them.

I am sure your's is fine as you know where it came from, and I realize you know your stuff. But I think a call on this is premature on the pictures provided. Maybe our language difference has made me think you are saying for certain that this piece posted by Gerard is without question?.

Best,

Kris

[Vid]

Mr Scratch,

If you could be kind enough to photo the inside of your piece and e-mail it to me along with the various sides. I will explain what I am talking about if you assure me not to disclose it on a public venue.

allach1@cox.net

Kind Regards,

Kris

[Mr. Scratch]

First of all, the domino means nothing, secondly I asked for pictures of all 4 sides, 3rd the mark means nothing on these.

It appears to be a reproduction, any attempt to call it on the photo's provided are fruitless.

Cough up the photo's like I asked and you can have an opinion.

Best,

Kris

A) The domino does mean something. To explain further, I've no knowlege of a repro that included the domino prior to the past year or so. Given that, it becomes a mark that might, but not necessarily, indicate originality. Kind of like the black light test on paper or fabric - not 100% reliable, but its a start.

B) I don't own or have access to the Julleuchter in question, and am not even the original poster. You'll have to address your requests to Gerard.

C) I included the photos of the SS mark of my example because someone asked to see it, not because it indicates anything one way or the other.

Thats all. I don't have a stake one way or the other in this, but am interested in learning if there is something I don't know. I'll email you about the indicators you spoke of.

[Vid]

A) The domino does mean something. To explain further, I've no knowlege of a repro that included the domino prior to the past year or so. Given that, it becomes a mark that might, but not necessarily, indicate originality. Kind of like the black light test on paper or fabric - not 100% reliable, but its a start.

B) I don't own or have access to the Julleuchter in question, and am not even the original poster. You'll have to address your requests to Gerard.

C) I included the photos of the SS mark of my example because someone asked to see it, not because it indicates anything one way or the other.

Thats all. I don't have a stake one way or the other in this, but am interested in learning if there is something I don't know. I'll email you about the indicators you spoke of.

Robin Lumsden posted the domino issue regarding his piece some time ago, and attributed that to originality as he had known pedigree that substantiated the piece and the domino was a deviation from the norm.

That does not mean that the domino is a surefire way to detect a fake.

What I will not do is give instructions on how to fabricate a Juhlector or for that matter give up the different means used to discern a fake.

If you are interested in learning forward the pictures of your piece which you do have access to and I will tell you why it is correct and why I question Gerards.

That is as long as you do not disclose it on a public forum, if you agree to that I will offer you the information you seek.

Kind Regards,

Kris Lindblom

[Josef Hahne]

Gerard,
Ok, that seems settled. The consensus on your Juleleuchter is.... well flip a coin and call it in the air!!

I'm not a clay person so I really don't know what I'm talking about but I know someone that supplied a pretty good pattern of a Juleleuchter to a professional to have a few made for a display. the "professional" did not come anywhere close to getting it to look right. Afterward the "professional" said that it was a rather difficult piece to fabricate. Ok, that being said they are difficult to make somewhat correctly, there are a bunch of different variants that seem to share only the basic shape, and originally there were hundreds of thousands of these things made, by hand no less! A true collectors nightmare if their ever was one!

I realize that by posting fotos, it only gives more chanse that teh fakers will "get it right" next time. I'm all for not letting that happen!

If I can ask one question. Was the majority of the stamp on the base done with a form or was it carved in by hand? Mine seems to be done by hand. Answers can be sent by PM if more comfortable.

Sepp

[Vid]

Gerard,
Ok, that seems settled. The consensus on your Juleleuchter is.... well flip a coin and call it in the air!!

I'm not a clay person so I really don't know what I'm talking about but I know someone that supplied a pretty good pattern of a Juleleuchter to a professional to have a few made for a display. the "professional" did not come anywhere close to getting it to look right. Afterward the "professional" said that it was a rather difficult piece to fabricate. Ok, that being said they are difficult to make somewhat correctly, there are a bunch of different variants that seem to share only the basic shape, and originally there were hundreds of thousands of these things made, by hand no less! A true collectors nightmare if their ever was one!

I realize that by posting fotos, it only gives more chanse that teh fakers will "get it right" next time. I'm all for not letting that happen!

If I can ask one question. Was the majority of the stamp on the base done with a form or was it carved in by hand? Mine seems to be done by hand. Answers can be sent by PM if more comfortable.



Sepp

There were huge #'s of these produced and there are pictures of them being manufactured by local girls, boys, BDM, and standard skilled labor and they show the actual means of how these were done in some cases.

1938-39 there were 120,000 of these produced and another period reference gives a # of 160,000 for one wartime year. If you stop there you have 380,000 original's. These are essentially dirt molded into a Pagan ritual piece that Himmler had wanted every SS man to have. Color will deviate, it was after all dirt. If you dig in one spot and move to another you have different dirt. Handling one of these items enough or using them will alter the color in some cases.

Fact is these were hand made and fashioned with hand tools, the pictures prove it. They were also dried in a certain manner, the pictures prove it. Was the process of manufacture changed at any time? could be, but doubt it.

But take the low # of 360,000 discount 1936,37,40,41,43,44 and then add the fact that hundred's of different little hands had a part in their manufacture and you have a problem, cause their not the same.

But there was a process, and where there is a process there is generally signs of that process, but not necessarily conformity in outward appearance.

******Some were stamped and some were done by hand.*******

Best,

Kris

[Mr. Scratch]

I've privately emailed Vid about his "evidence" that this is a repro, as he was concerned that fakers would take advantage of his extraordinary knowledge. Having learned the nature of his complaint, I found it to be solidly and demonstratably incorrect, and explained in detail the source of his confusion. There really is no room to question or doubt the matter. I offered him an opportunity to set the record straight here, but he has declined, so I will do so instead: Vid's primary complaint about this piece is totally invalid.

Concerning his secondary concern, about the "domino":

"Robin Lumsden posted the domino issue regarding his piece some time ago, and attributed that to originality as he had known pedigree that substantiated the piece and the domino was a deviation from the norm.

That does not mean that the domino is a surefire way to detect a fake."

I still haven't quite figured out what Vid's issue is in regard to collectors factoring in the domino while trying to establish a Julleuchter's originality. He insists it is not a reliable indicator of originality, but again does not seem to want to elaborate on what the issues are.

Since he has not spelled out his concerns in any detail, I can only assume he is working from a twisted interpretation of the known fact that not all originals have dominos. The general admonition among collectors who know these items is that you can't rely on the presence of a domino to establish a leuchter is pre-45 -- not because the domino itself is suspect, but because many original peices were made without them. I suspect that Vid has spun it around.

In other words, instead of interpreting the presence of a domino is being a conditional positive (which means that it doesn't need to be there, but is helpful if it is), he may be interpreting it as a negative or a non-factor; that since it is not in itself a reliable determiner of originality (because they don't all have them), then it's presence is to be discounted when it does appear.

Anyway, in regard to the Julleuchter Gerard has been offered: Aside from the odd color (which I believe to be the result of painting), I see nothing about this Julleuchter that would indicate it is a reproduction.

Indeed, I'll put my money where my mouth is. If the price is right (in consideration of the serious damage the paint will have done, and the work needed to get it ready for resale), and if Gerard doesn't want the item, then I would be interested in buying it myself. That is how confident I am in this piece's likely authenticity.

[Robin Lumsden]

If I can chip in here............

The domino only appears on one type of Julleuchter, from a single mould.

On 'domino' Julleuchters, not only the domino mark but ALL THE OTHER DOTS will be in identical positions. The dots were part of the mould. They were not hand-done. Only the hearts and wheels/hagallrunes were cut out by hand.

That is why I also think that Gerard's is OK.............although possibly refinished.

Any Julleuchter with a domino where the other dots deviate will be questionable.

Here's another original domino Julleuchter.............compare the dots all over the thing with the ones on Gerard's. They are in identical places.

[Robin Lumsden]

Comparison pix...............all dots in the same places. Gerard's.......

[Robin Lumsden]

Known original, from the estate of SS-Staf. Muhlenkamp................

[Robin Lumsden]

So all the domino Julleuchters should be identical in their details.

Another thing.................the domino type is usually thicker and heavier than the others.

Domino Julleuchters have a really substantial feel to them.

They feel as if they could be dropped from a height and sustain no damage.................although I've never tested the theory!