Permission to Wear the Runes

[Robin Lumsden]

I see on page 580 of the latest Andreas Thies catalogue (what a stunner that catalogue is! ) there's a certificate issued to a police officer and SS member authorising him to wear the SS runes on the police uniform in terms of Hitler's order dated 16th January 1937.

The certificate is signed by Moder, with a facsimile Himmler signature.

Until now, I didn't know that these certificates existed.

There must be a few of them about, as thousands of SS/Police men wore the breast runes.

[Tommaso]

Interesting!
I was researching about these Brustabzeichen but I found more or less nothing.
Someone suggest that this kind of insigna was used, along to show theirs own SS-Allgemeine membership, by few germans attached to some foreign Freiwillige divisions to show they belonging to the Volksdeutsche group.
I couldn't find anything and I have serious concerns about that.

Cheers
T

[Robin Lumsden]

Tom.

The breast runes were worn:

1. On the police tunic, by policemen who also held SS membership; and
2. On the Waffen-SS tunic, by German SS men when a foreign vounteer collar tab was used.

The thing I was posting about was the certificate...............I was unaware that certificates were issued with these runes badges.

[derek]

Robin,
This order regarding the weraing of the runic breast badge does not mention a document but I thought it might be of interest to you nonetheless. Note the reference to Feldjaegerkorps.
Derek

[RaymondG]

Robin and Derek

Great, informative thread.

I would have expected plenty of such documents to be in existence, and I have not seen one before.

I am still waiting for my auction catalogue Andreas promised to send it a couple of weeks ago!

Raymond

[Tommaso]

Tom.

The breast runes were worn:

1. On the police tunic, by policemen who also held SS membership; and
2. On the Waffen-SS tunic, by German SS men when a foreign vounteer collar tab was used.

The thing I was posting about was the certificate...............I was unaware that certificates were issued with these runes badges.

Robin,

This is what I was telling about, people use to say that but actually I've researched a bit and it looks not correct to me.
As far as I know if you were a Volksdeutsche in a foreign volunteer division you were allowed to wear the runes (many pictures evidence of that use exists) than there was no sense at all to wear the volunteer tab and the SS on the breast to show their Volksdeutsche ancestorship.
I know few examples of runes on breast and foreign volunteer tab on Volksdeutsche soldiers in foreign units (Prinz Eugen and Handschar above all) but standing to my research (where possible) they all were Allgemeine-SS members (See for istance "Himmler's Bosnian Divisions" of George Lepre).
Officially SS-Brustabzeichn was created and just to show your Allgemeine-SS membership only, infact in the 80% of the cases depicted on pictures it was used by Polizei and not Waffen-SS members: do you know of any official printed regulation about this?

Thanks

[derek]

Drapeau Noir,

The badge indicates membership of any branch of the SS not just the Allgemeine-SS.
Official orders of 15 July 1943 indicate:

"Only members of the SS who have been allotted an SS number and who are in possession of an SS identity card may wear the SS runes.
Members of the SS who are entitled to wear the runes but who are serving a formation of the Waffen-SS with a special badge, or in the German police, will wear the SS runes on the lower left breast."

Can anyone post a picture of this certificate in the catalogue? I am interested by the date as most documents, like the one I posted above, when referring to the badge use the date of introduction, the 10th of May, 1937, (the Day of German Police).

Derek

[Tommaso]

The badge indicates membership of any branch of the SS not just the Allgemeine-SS.

Hi

Yes, this is what I was talking about, ONLY SS members could wear that badge(on Police or W-SS uniform both) to show theirs SS membership, then not by Waffen-SS member to show their Volksdeutsche provenace, totally another thing.
The date of badge introduction at 10th of May 1937, the Day of German Police, confirm that (official) use and only that.

But what do you mean by "any branch"?
There was just one SS, the Allgemeine.
There was just one chance to be an SS, own the membership\numbers to them.
The only "real" SS was the Allgemeine since not all the Waffen-SS member had SS membership number: all the owners of SS numbers and membership were under Allgemeine-SS first, or I'm worng? Then later they could have the chance to fight in the Waffen-SS, as I reported talking about Handschar and PE, but they were Allgemeine-SS member anyway...


Thanks
Tom

[derek]

Tom,

Your statement: "There was just one SS, the Allgemeine" is incorrect.
The SS in its totality was known as Gesamt-SS.
The Allgemeine-SS, SS-TV, SS-VT (later Waffen-SS), SD and Germanic SS were all considered branches of that.
Derek

[Tommaso]

Hi Derek,

Of course, it's incorrect, but talking about a badge used by Waffen-SS and Police to show their membership in the SS looks quite clear to me that we talking about Allgemeine-SS since if they were members of Sicherheits Dienst, Germanske, TV or VT\WSS they supposed to wear uniforms and insignas of such branches, right?
Then again, it's quite likely that the the introduction of such a badge was adressed mainly to Police and Waffen-SS who would have shown theirs Allgemeine-SS membership, I'm I wrong?
And then again are you sure that all VT\WSS men were automatically SS members wit numbers and so?
We can say that after 1943 even the Polizei was an SS branch but of course not all Police men were automatically SS members, and this is the reason why the badge was introduced.


Cheers
T

[Robin Lumsden]

Drapeau Noir,

The badge indicates membership of any branch of the SS not just the Allgemeine-SS.
Official orders of 15 July 1943 indicate:

"Only members of the SS who have been allotted an SS number and who are in possession of an SS identity card may wear the SS runes.
Members of the SS who are entitled to wear the runes but who are serving a formation of the Waffen-SS with a special badge, or in the German police, will wear the SS runes on the lower left breast."

Can anyone post a picture of this certificate in the catalogue? I am interested by the date as most documents, like the one I posted above, when referring to the badge use the date of introduction, the 10th of May, 1937, (the Day of German Police).

Derek

Derek.

Thanks for posting that document............very interesting.

The document in the Thies catalogue is dated 1.1.1939, and refers to the Hitler Order as dated 16.1.1937. It's named to Gustav Zuschneid, b. 27.3.96, SS-Hstuf. in SS-Stammabteilung Ost - Bezirk 27. I can't post a picture (scanner problems) but the document is a large one (like the first pattern Fire Brigade Decoration citations) and reads...........

"Gustav Zuschnied........ etc. etc................Ihm wird gemaess Anordnung des Fuehrers und Reichskanzlers vom 16 Jan 37 das Recht zum Tragen der Sig-Runen an der Uniform der Ordningspolizei verliehen."

It's accompanied by a photo of Zuschneid.

[Tommaso]

Robin,

What do you think about the use by W-SS to show theirs Volksdeutsche ancestorship then?
Appear quite clear from the document posted by Derek that officially the Brustabzeichen was introduced to show the SS membership only.
And again, if I'm not wrong, the Volksdeutsche attached to foreign divisions were allowed to wear the runes on the tabs, right?



Thanks
T

[Robin Lumsden]

Tom.

The breast runes had nothing to do with the Volksdeutsche.

Only full members of the SS (i.e. those with SS membership numbers and Ausweis) could wear the breast runes. They only wore the breast runes if they had no runes on the collar tab.

Collar tab runes could be worn by non-SS members, including Volksdeutsche, if their unit had collar runes.

[Tommaso]

Ok Robin, now I see you mean "German SS" as Gesamt-SS full member and not "German" as "Volksdeutsche SS man".

Many people around are still thinking, due a misunderstooding, that the SS-Brustabzeichen was used by Waffen-SS when a foreign tab was in use, but not to show theirs membership in the SS but to replace the SS tabs (with the meaning of "Volksdeutsche").

Thanks
T

[Mike TM]

Interesting thread, I have learnt very much,
Mike