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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    A-SS "II" cufftitle

    Hi,

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240172

    Could this A-SS Sturmbann (Roman numerals) cuff titles also be worn by EM/NCOs please ?
    Some body had he period pics of such bands worn.

    Thank's
    Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
    - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Pascal,
    It certainly could be worn by a lower ranked member of the SS. However, it is an Abschnitt band for Chemnitz and not a sturmbann title.
    Are you looking for a photograph of any abschnitt level title in wear or specifically this one, "II"?
    Derek

    Comment

      #3
      Hi Derek and thank you.

      but what's the difference between a "Sturmbann" band and a "SS-Abschnitt" one please.
      Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
      - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

      Comment

        #4
        Pascal,
        The Abscnitte titles have roman numerals as in the "II" here and the Standarte ones feauture arabic numbers as in "2".
        Derek

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by derek View Post
          Pascal,
          The Abscnitte titles have roman numerals as in the "II" here and the Standarte ones feauture arabic numbers as in "2".
          Derek
          Derek Think we have a little misunderstanding..
          Roman numerals are used for A-SS Abschnitte and Sturmbanne
          The arabic numbers bands are used for the "Sturme" (Cies) and "Standarten" (Rgts)
          If I remember well, is a "Sturmbann" a grouping of 4 "Sturme".
          The Sturm cuff tittles with arabic number were used with color edging until 1939/40, and after with "silver" edging and silver bullion embroidered numbers (as showed on several period pics) like the officers one earlier.

          But, I've only seen this roman numerals cuff tittles on A-SS officers affected to a "Standarte" (Rgt) => Arabic number on the collar tab and commanding a "Sturmbann".

          And that's because i'm asking...

          Could this A-SS Sturmbann (Roman numerals) cuff titles also be worn by EM/NCOs please ?
          Some body had he period pics of such bands worn by EM/NCOs.
          Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
          - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

          Comment

            #6
            Pascal,
            You bring up an interesting point about the Sturmbann title. Do you have a source for the attribution of Roman numbers for this level?
            Most documents I have appear to show that up until 1937/38 the Sturmbann was indicated, for the rank and file, by the coloured edge of the title together with the number of the sturm. Officers would have worn the number of the standarte on their title.
            Pricelists throughout the pre-war years show the roman numeral cuffbands in the group for the Adschnitt level.
            After 1937/38 the Allgemeine-SS sleeve band insignia had to have been re-organised as the coloured edges were definitely discontinued but I have yet to find any documents that describe it.
            I have always presumed that after this date the sturm number was sufficient to indicate the Sturmbann.
            I would be very interested in any information you could share. You mention a photograph of an officer with an arabic regimental collar patch and a roman cufftitle can you post it or let me know where it mmight be published.
            Thanks,
            Derek

            Comment

              #7
              Hi Derek,

              take a look on this thread :

              http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226124&highlight=sturmbann+cuffti tle

              and that's also because I'm asking a period pic.
              Bob's collection is amazing , and as you can read it, this tunis has a history, I know it's period sewn.
              For the commanding officer of "A-SS Sturmbann II" it's absolutely not uncommon, but perhaps for a NCO of the staff of the same "Sturmbann II" for example, could it be possible
              Last edited by Pascal Bernhard; 09-16-2007, 12:47 PM.
              Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
              - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

              Comment

                #8
                Pascal,
                Thanks for pointing me to that thread. Given that the tunic appears to have solid provenance we certainly do seem to be seeing an officer wearing a roman numeral indicating his sturmbann.
                What I would love to know is whether this is a personal choice or an official usage as specified by the 1937/38 insignia change I mentioned. Prior to this officers were supposed to wear a blank title when on the staff of a sturmbann.
                Unfortunately all the photos I have of regimental level officers show the standarte number on their cuffband. Those with roman numerals are at the Abschnitte level.
                Your question as to whether an NCO could wear this title would be answered if someone did have information that showed that this was the official cufftitle in the later years of the Allg-SS. Then I think it would be most likely.
                Period photographic evidence would be nice but I suspect is unlikely. I'll look through some material again just on the off-chance.
                Derek

                Comment

                  #9
                  Mystery Cufftitle?

                  Disclaimer: I am a newbie, I have searched the internet in general, I have searched this forum (I hope thoroughly enough), I cannot post images yet, and while I can type with 1 finger of each hand, it's very difficult to get good images with even my overpriced Droid phone (I am disabled, as Tetraplegic It's a fancy name for about 2/3 paralyzed). I am happy to email anyone a couple of decent images I have managed today, for a look at what I am sharing below. End Disclaimer:


                  Though this is an older thread, it seems closest to my curiosity...


                  I have searched both this forum and the internet for several hours over the past month, trying to better understand the origination, use by, age, rarity, etc… of a cufftitle. Of course, I have received a novice education on cufftitles along the way, but found almost nothing about the one I want to know about… L <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
                  Specifically, the “format” of the cufftitle lettering (something I did find) is Sturmbann z.b. V.V/W f. In my case, the actual cufftitle is Sturmbann z.b. D.II/W f. It’s on a wine/burgundy colored band, as are the edges with the same color, and I would say the letters/numbers are between white and silver... It also has an RZM tag on the back attached to right side - the edge past the words/numbers when you turn it over,
                  The RZM tag is on a white background, from top left to bottom right (colors from here indicating colors on the tag), A capital letter C Then RZM Logo Then Hersteller <New Line> Capital A space 4 Then 210 in purple on what looks like a red musical note staff with a red party emblem on the end of the staff <New Line> in all red text Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP. <New Line> Capital N space red musical staff again with black text/letters Nr. #426169).
                  I don't think anyone ever wore this cufftitle.
                  <o></o>In my internet travels, I did find one close example at Oakleaf Militaria (don’t know if still there or not).<o></o>
                  Any insight or worthwhile links into the cufftitle is greatly appreciated in advance.<o></o>
                  Leo

                  Comment

                    #10
                    If there is no 'SS' runes in a circle then it isn't an SS cufftitle ... sounds like a Partei item.

                    I wouldn't use Oakleaf Militaria as a source of reference ... that item could have been made yesterday.

                    Ian.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      "Sturmbann z.b.V. Wf."
                      means " Sturmbann zur besonderne Verwendung Wf (SA group). for Westfalen.

                      Imo your band is a SA Cufftittle.

                      wine/burgundy is the Wf. SA group color.
                      Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
                      - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        RE: Mystery Cufftitle

                        Originally posted by Pascal Bernhard View Post
                        "Sturmbann z.b.V. Wf."
                        means " Sturmbann zur besonderne Verwendung Wf (SA group). for Westfalen.

                        Imo your band is a SA Cufftittle.

                        wine/burgundy is the Wf. SA group color.
                        Thank you Paschal. Any idea about its age, use? I did find a little info that mentioned cufftitles made/distributed with the same color material and border are pre 1938, and very rare. Also found something about these particular types of cuffitles being predecessors to true SS cufftitles. Any idea what having the RZM tag still on - does that mean it was never issued?

                        Again, thanks so much for any help.

                        Best,

                        Leo

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ian Hulley View Post
                          If there is no 'SS' runes in a circle then it isn't an SS cufftitle ... sounds like a Partei item.

                          I wouldn't use Oakleaf Militaria as a source of reference ... that item could have been made yesterday.

                          Ian.
                          I'm a little surprised that the cuffband in question hasn't been snapped up, unpicked and morphed into a rare VT band with vet provenance.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            " I am happy to email anyone a couple of decent images I have managed today, for a look at what I am sharing below."

                            Please , email the pics to me.I Will try to post it on the forum
                            Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
                            - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Your Cufftitles are indeed SA Cufftitles, used for the SA group Wf (Westfalen).
                              The RZM paper tags on the back are Hitler Youth RZM taxes tags. What is possible, this tags are only a taxe proof.

                              => A 210 is the make code and Nr 426167 is the serial number of the paper tag

                              Your CTs are indeed unissued never worn maker storage pick ups in my opinion.

                              As said "Sturmbann z.v.V. II / Wf." means "2nd Sturmbann" (a "Sturmbann" = 4 Cies), "zur besonderne Verwendung II" = for special use (roman number 2), SA group "Westfalen".
                              Attached Files
                              Straßburger / When in doubt do without...
                              - Looking for : SS TK «Oberbayern» flatwire CT.

                              Comment

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