yes this is a waffen SS uniform (sort of)

[NickG]

Here's a cool combination of zoll (customs) insignia + waffen SS sleeve eagle after the SS took over this organization! (in 1944 after Hitler's assassination attempt).
So it could be called an SS uniform (sort of), as they became associated with the SS!
Even the standard "RFV" Reichsfinanzverwaltung (Reich Finance administration) shoulderboards cyphers were ordered removed after its incorporation in the SS.

The image is tagged by 2 different owners!! so if either one wants it pulled I can certainly do so. They are both getting their deserved credit!!! ("Zollgrenzschutz" is a WAF member)
I just could not resist sharing this rare image!! Just in case a uniform turns up with this combination.... leave it alone, now that you know that its a legit combination!!!
Who knew?

We are all here to learn!!!
Nick

[NickG]

more customs personnel in SS coats

Here's another picture of customs personnel (winter 44-45) being transported by rail. Note mix of Zoll (customs) and Waffen SS uniforms after the SS take over of ReichsFinanzVerwaltung (customs and Reich Finance Administration).

Left is an SS great coat worn with a Zoll M43 cap ! Some other customs personnel still wearing Zoll greatcoats with standard customs cuff titles and summer cotton caps!!!! Note official standing in the back also wearing an SS greatcoat. Also their age is a clear indication these are ALL customs officials!!

I borrowed this picture from the photo section, so its been posted on WAF already (misidentified as mixed waffen SS and customs troops...wrong!), so I'm sure its OK to borrow it for uniform studies here and correct the caption!! Nick

[NickG]

another example

Here you clearly see the customs-RFV shoulderboards placed on a Waffen SS greatcoat after the SS took control of the ReichsFinanzVerwaltung and started equipping these officials!! Compare the shoulderboards of both men in this image with the ones in the 1st picture of this thread! RARE IMAGES!!
The SS take over dictated that the RFV cyphers were to be removed from the shoulderboards after their incorporation into the SS ! The summer cap is also an interesting detail! (January 1945 !!)

So if you ever come across an SS great coat with customs rank insignia here is proof that its a ligit combination! Who knew?
I recently restored a customs uniform and started studying this "branch"! Thought it was worthwhile sharing these revelations here! An exotic combination of insignia! Credit goes to KB-Archiv!
Nick

[Von Hoth]

excellent information.

thank you.

[Bob Hritz]

Being under control of the SS does not make it an SS tunic any more than wearing a Deutsche Wehrmacht armband makes a civilian coat into an army tunic.

Bob Hritz

[NickG]

Being under control of the SS does not make it an SS tunic any more than wearing a Deutsche Wehrmacht armband makes a civilian coat into an army tunic.

Bob Hritz

Very true Bob ! BUT these are clearly feldgrau SS tunics and SS greatcoats with sleeve eagles left in place (factory sewn) with added customs shoulderboards it appears... Just an interesting mix of insignia that very few people know existed...
and way more elaborate than adding a (temporary) sleeve arm band, but I know what you're saying with your example... These are and remain RFV personnel, not SS, but wearing modified SS garments, as they were now being supplied by the SS administration...
That's why I added the "sort of" comment to my thread title... Thanks for your participation and comments! Nick

[Bob Hritz]

Nick,

I agree, they were under control of the SS to secure borders as well as watch for deserters. The Grenz-Polizei wore a combination of SS and Customs uniform items.

Bob Hritz

[JoeW]

Nick, are you writing that the Zoll was eliminated and all customs inspections were conducted by SS controlled personnel? Are are we refering to just the Grenz-Schutz that had long been under SS control?

[NickG]

Nick, are you writing that the Zoll was eliminated and all customs inspections were conducted by SS controlled personnel? Are are we refering to just the Grenz-Schutz that had long been under SS control?

No not at all... never eliminated....only their RFV shoulderboard cyphers were eliminated... (at least on paper...if this was followed thru in the field by everybody, who knows?)
My understanding is that the Zoll (grenzschutz) Customs and border protection, as well as the RFV (ministry of Finance) personnel just had a new boss...

So they were not eliminated, not replaced... same duties, same people, same uniforms (but sometimes modified SS versions...as supply became an SS activity I assume, this based on the posted pictures!) .
Their reporting obligations, duties and instructions were now SS controlled... as Hitler only trusted the SS after his assassination attempt...
I do agree that the prewar SS had their own "grenz-Polizei" (my brother owns one of those rare cufftitles) but they were not a RFV controlled unit... at least as far as I know...

Another example of the SS becoming an umbrella organization is the Polizei (early on) They went a step further and even started issuing SS soldbuchs to Polizei personnel towards the end of the war... Does that make them SS? no... did they change personnel and uniforms? no...

So kind of the same I guess... Germany was becoming more and more an SS controlled State as things started to crumble... Just tightening up areas of control towards the end... in desparation... when the wheels were starting to come off the bus!

Perhaps WAF member "grenzschutz" can step in, this is his "territory"!! I'm just starting to learn more about this subject matter and my interests are mainly the uniform aspect of this, so that's why I started this thread in the uniform section, as its an interesting mix of insignia!!! Thanks
Nick

[Von Hoth]

I find this post extremely informative. It gives a clear picture to the collector what the origins of some possible mixed uniform setups that might be found are.

But I guess after 1944, Germany was in such chaos that maybe a lot of irregular uniform happenings abounded.


are there any other examples of one branch being mixed with another other than this?

[NickG]

That's why I like the volksturm so much, with them pretty much any combination is possible... Other examples would be HJ flak helpers wearing Luftwaffe items, some unofficially because of shortages or preferance... Like LW greatcoats instead of their own HJ Flak pattern great coat, unauthorized use of LW breast eagles by LW Flak helpers in lieu of HJ flak triangular breast patches... and
Transport Gruppe Speer and NSKK-Luftwaffe units wearing interesting mixes of uniform items of both their own branches and those they were attached to...
but we should try to stick with SS or SS related matters on this thread...

[JoeW]

Nick, would you enlighten me on this subject a bit. You have read that late in the war Himmler replaced Schwerin v. Krosigk as Minister of Finance, taking control of the Zoll, RFV and so forth? Can you please point me in that direction? As far as I have read, v.Krosigk remained Minister of Finance, in control of the Zoll and RFV, until the end, when he was named to Donitz's new government after Hitler's death.

The SS/Gestapo took over the Grenzschutz before the war. But the Zoll/RFV still operated their financial/supervisory responsibiities unitl the end. At least that is what I understand. Are you assuming the Himmler take-over because of the photos of mix uniform personnel? Or do you have a specific date and decree from Hitler for this takeover.

Thanks.

[NickG]

Again I'm more interested in the uniform aspect of this, but I did attempt to research it because of this mix of insignia and came up with the following (according to Wikipedia Germany...I read German by the way, if you need this translated let me know):

Nach dem Attentat vom 20. Juli 1944 unterstellte Hitler den ZGS der SS. Innerhalb weniger Monate wurden Führungskräfte des ZGS durch Polizei– oder SS–Kräfte ersetzt.

That certainly sounds like an SS take over to me! Perhaps this take over only covered the ZGS component of the RFV and not the entire RFV? but again I am not an expert on this by no means!! Thanks for asking!
Nick

PS: I think that this is indeed the case, because I just discovered the following while digging more into this subject matter!
Am 2. Mai 1945 wurde der ZGS wieder dem Reichsfinanzministerium unterstellt!

So what this means, most likely the entire RFV did not go under SS control, but the ZGS component of the RFV indeed did! And they became SS affiliated hence the order to remove the RFV shoulderboard cyphers off of their uniforms, being detached from the RFV.... Makes sense now!
So I guess I was partially right and you were indeed right! The ministry of Finance was always independent (just lost control of their borderguard component, basically being downsized because of the SS take over after Hitler's assassination attempt... but I have no doubt that the big wigs in that Ministry were all SS (or Honorary SS) members regardless!) Anyway thanks for clearing that up!
Again this is by no means to be intrepreted as a thesis on this subject matter, that's why I had asked WAF member "zollgrenzschutz" to chime in here... as he has a web site dedicated to this organization! (1st photo was "borrowed" from him!)

PPS: The Gestapo did not take over the Grenz-Schutz...that was RFV until 1944 for sure!
You are thinking about the "Grenz Polizei".... "Grenz Polizei" and "Zollgrenzschutz" are 2 different branches, the 1st is indeed an SS sponsered activity (actually Gestapo) that lasted only until October 1941...(Grenz Polizei = "frontier police") and the 2nd "Grenz Schutz" = "border security" is an RFV (Reich Finance Administration) activity, that later became SS controlled after Hitler's assassination plot in 1944, hence the mixed insignia as shown here, the topic of this thread!

[JoeW]

Thank you Nick, for the correction. It was late and of course I should have written Grenz-Polizei.

I appreciate the direction to the Wikepedia.de information. But I guess I am not reading as much into it as you have. The article stated that Hitler placed the SS in control of the ZGS and that SS executive personnel took over almost completely within the Reich but sparsely in non-Reich territories. I don't see that ZGS insignia was replaced or that the SS took over supply of these men. Perhaps that is too detailed to be convered in such a general information format.

Nick, were you able to discover that Wikipedia author's sources? Do you accept as fact the information presented in such an article without independent verification of your own? With the recent news reports of doctored Wikipedia articles, do you wonder who wrote the Zollgrenzschutz article and what souces the person used for their statements?

[NickG]

Here are some sources if you want to dig deeper into this matter and/or verify the connection between late war RFV borderguards and their transfer to SS control. Again I was intrigued by the mix of uniform parts and wanted an explanation...
By no means am I claiming to be knowlegeable on this...just brushing the surface for some possible answers...and making some inconclusive "calls" based on observation of these pictures and loose facts gathered off the web...
Basically assumptions like "if an RFV borderguard is wearing an SS great coat, it was obviously supplied by the SS"...and finding out that indeed this RFV arm (zolldienst) was under SS control post Hitler assasination attempt! So that would make sense, having access to SS supplies. I also understand that these RFV borderguards became fighting men in SS lead anti partisan operations along with Polizei troops (these were also under SS control now)
Wikipedia is obviously a very generic (simplistic) source...

Regarding the removal of RFV cyphers comment: this source is not very good... but a dealer had advertised RFV borderguard shoulderboards without these cyphers and in the item description it stated that the lack of cyphers would mean a modification, when the SS took control... Not a waterproof explanation but does make sense...if you are no longer RFV, why wear those cyphers?
The picture that started this thread does show a fieldgrey SS uniform (with factory attached SS sleeve eagle) modified with zoll rank insignia and LACKING RFV cyphers so that's proof for me! Pictures don't lie!
I started this thread to get real answers (and be corrected by and connected with people like you!) Thanks!
Nick
The sources are listed below:
-Walter Eulitz, Die Geschichte des Zollgrenzdienstes/Der Zollgrenzdienst, Stollfuß Verlag, Bonn 1968
-Christian Gerlach, Beiträge zur Geschichte des Nationalsozialismus (Band 16 Durchschnittstäter), ISBN 3–922611–84–2
-Karl Groth, Die Reichsfinanzverwaltung, Industrieverlag Spaeth & Linde, Berlin 1944
-Martin Friedenberger, Die Reichsfinanzverwaltung im Nationalsozialismus, ISBN 3–861083–77–9
-Horst Bathe, Die Mittelbehörden der Reichsfinanzverwaltung und ihre Präsidenten 1919 – 1945, Brühl 2001