Originally posted by Soldat de Fer
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That is what non of us should forget
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That is what non of us should forget -
ss
Personally, I feel sick for Bryon. His honesty with the disclosure in this matter is noteworthy and as someone said very honorable. All of us have leaned a lesson here.
MartyI love the beach.Comment
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Id still like to hear from the person(s) who claimed to know the "provenence" on this piece. If someone had me believing such a story with such conviction I would be very upset and expose that character for what he is... This was posted by DJPool in post 361, if the person who claimed to have got it from the vet posted in this thread I for one want him to step forward and explain.Not that he will.Something doesnt add up I get emails telling me a person who isnt even connected to the forum "found" the tunic or made it. Its very odd and confusing..because if he was some obscure guy no one knows then what was the big deal in revealing the name?
"15. Bryon bought the jacket from Kurt Zahnle when Kurt sold his collection about 27 years ago. Kurt got the wrap from the person that got it intact with insignia from the vet. Who was that person? Neither I nor Bryon know, but I can tell you that at least two of the members posting on this thread do know. Furthermore, the person that originally got it from the vet has also posted on this thread...Tom tgn"Last edited by John Pic; 06-30-2007, 03:41 AM.Comment
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John, no big mystery or conspiracy here. The person that Kurt bought the wrap from claimed HE had gotten it from the vet. In the 1970's that was very easy for Kurt to believe, expecially with such a stunning item being offered to him from an obscure shop. Given that the wrap had all real insignia and no red flags, there was no reason to doubt the seller. And there was no reason for Bryon not to believe Kurt's "facts" as Kurt knew them.Originally posted by John Pic View Post
As it turns out, my information that two members posting on this thread knew where it came from is inaccurate. They knew nothing more than the original story with some added details that Bryon had not heard before. It was Bill that revealed the knowledge that the insignia had been replaced. I believe that the person who sold the wrap to Kurt may be still around and reading, if not posting, on this forum. But that is just a hunch on my part...Tom
Last edited by tgn; 06-30-2007, 08:23 AM.Comment
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Ok...now we can put this thread to rest and not even worry about it. The obscure guy goes un-named.He couldnt have been that obscure since his reputation garnered him the support of a member who prided himself in the fact that he knew who originally found the wrapper but would'nt reveal it in public...more games? Who knows..looks like a face saving excercise to me for someone who's name hasnt been revealed.
Next time I hear Chuckie Warriners or Charles Snyder or some other name being thrashed by the old guard of the hobby I will point out the hypocrisy of even the notion that a mans name can be raked over the coals in public by people who love to hide everything.
Or that a mans treasures are scrutinized without mercy and gleefully ridiculed to death by amateurs and self made experts who were recognized by this forum to have the abilities to help others learn, but hide the reasoning behind thier posts by being cryptic and evasive in giving answers and when pushed to offer an answer try to make the guy defending the piece look like a big bad trouble maker, whiner or novice.
Seven years ago when I joined the other forum because of my deep interest for these items and love of WW2 history, I would read that Mr. Paxton whom I discussed earlier was appraising SS tunics and giving advice to collectors who had been around awhile.As I ponted out he had attempted to rip me off and nearly succeeded were it not for a guy who actually knew the tunic was a parts piece and that the guy I was dealing with bought parts from him.Later to be confirmed by the tailor. I kept quiet for over 20 years never using the name on the forum just the story because I had no wish to harm anyone and felt that forums were too easy a way for people to get free advice and never have to do thier homework, including knowing who they were dealing with behind the scenes.Ive since decided to start naming names when I have facts, since its names that feel they have a right to play with my sensitive nature, while damaging a REAL tunic owned by me with the opinions forum members entitled them to by placing laurels on thier heads as experts.
While this thread demonstrates exactly that type of dealing and despite the fact the truth about the tunic itself came out the lineage of it has never been completely revealed..who owned that Sturmbannfuhrers collar tab and the other insignias?Some obscure name ? Am I a "conspiracy" cryer? "Potstirrer' No just a fact seeking retired cop.
Or.... and this is purely innuendo..a passing thought...does the guy have alot of good original stuff and everyone would hate to ruin him as a source to buy from in the future or when they have to face him at every show.So a quick face saving solution to the thread was found and hopefully peoples brains will shut off and it will all just go away and be forgotten in the archives of time.
Last edited by John Pic; 06-30-2007, 10:54 AM.Comment
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I have nothing to hide at all but know from firsthand experience about these two shìtwipes you mention. I'm closing in on 30 years in the hobby which doesn't make me "old guard", but these two will always be despised by me.Originally posted by John Pic View PostWAF LIFE COACHComment
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not the area to play in
...and this thread just keeps on going.
It's nice to see some admissions, no matter how uncomfortable they may be. That's tough.
Unfortunately, I think this example should serve as a reality check for those who collect this stuff.
A chain of ownership, going back even 30 years, has been shown to be inadequte in determining originality. Unfortunately, most of this stuff doens't even have that to support it. I'd be willing to be that the provenance needed to absolutely confirm something is infact, rarer than the items themselves.
Ultimately, can the "provenance" be trusted?
With so much cash on the line, so many fake tunics, and even the very real possibility of dismissing real for fake, this is a very dangerous place to play indeed.Comment
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Anybody that thinks this thread is about only a SS jacket is very naive. It really is a microcosm of what is happening in this hobby. Items (questionable) get offered to people/ collectors, behind the scenes at very high prices. More than not these dealing are not made public, often at the request of the seller. There are many reasons for this, one of which can be the originality of the item or the price thereof. Sometimes these deals become public like in the case of this wrap.
From this point on it is no longer about the item in question, but more about egos, agendas, reputations and damage control. If the item was textbook, and could stand on its own, none of this would have been necessary. The proud new owner or the seller would have been to happy for this great item to be shared amongst fellow collectors. It is obvious then that the issue is not really about the item, but the other related issues that went with it. I am sure a large piece of this puzzle, namely where and why this thread originated, has has not even been considered here. Neither has the actions and words of the relevant roleplayer been assessed and understood.
I am not an expert on tunics or militaria, but I am an expert on human behavior and psycology and that happens to be a large part of this hobby. JacquesComment
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A very enlightening thread considering the cast of characters
It's a " Train wreck" of the 1st order..........sad.
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Cheers SteveComment
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After I made my posting of the additional information concerning this wraparound, I was confident that thread would come to a peaceful end. To my surprise and disappointment such was not to be the case. It continued to escalate negatively, propelled by a few “exceptional” individuals who were determined to sally forth with their claims of egos, agendas, reputations, damage control and let’s get to the bottom of all this. The moderator’s, in their wisdom, shut the thread down, an action I applaud. However, it is regrettable that it had to be done.
At my specific requesting, the moderator's have graciously granted me permission to make a last posting and thank certain people.
First, I would like to thank everyone who participated, whether in favor of or against the jacket matters not. Interesting, independent thought and critical analysis was brought forth. Not to mention outstanding dedicated research, particularly concerning the topic of POW’s.
Second, and with the hope that I am not transgressing any forum rules, I would like to thank by moniker (in order of their posting) all those who made comments of support after I made my disclosure of additional information post;
BenVK, JEAN- LOUP, bnz. 42 (I can't say with certainty, but I doubt that she is the original owner of the jacket!), Felix, John Pic, Dennis J, NTZ, derka, Leroy, Soldat de Fer, and MartyC.
Third, many thanks to the following "Old Guard" collectors (named alphabetically). These people were privy to the same "veteran story" as was I, so many years ago when the jacket was first "discovered". They were total believers, as were many others who chose to make no comment in the thread. However, unlike myself, who was also “taken in” by that “veteran story”, they did not share my advantage of being able to examine the piece in their collections (for decades!!!)
1) Bob Coleman, a true pillar for the collecting community.
2) Bob Hritz, who I have know well before this jacket was found and is one of the world's leading authorities in the field of SS cloth insignia.
3) TGN, what the hell good can I say about this guy!!!
Fourth, I would like to thank the moderator’s Adrian Stevenson, Gary Wood and Mike Davis for granting me this additional post and offering their help with posting pictures for me.
Finally my, as well as everyone’s, thanks need to be given to Bill Bourque, for without his dedication to photographic preservation, and willingness to contact me, the revelations about this example would not have been possible.
With Regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer
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