Originally posted by John Pic
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This is the exact same information I have heard, except it wasn't clear if it was marked "POW" on the back or just "P". That may be significant, and I am going to clarify that this week...Tom -
I shouldve been more clear it was stated it was a "white painted "P" ". I will edit my last post to reflect that.Comment
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Gentlemen,
You may accept, as a matter of fact, that repros (and very good ones) were being made and sold in the '60's and '70's. I know because I'm one of the "old guard" who was around then. The difference is that all the real stuff was still pretty readily available to be put together, too. Black wrappers were not rare (assault gunners were harder then, as now). Real wrappers, real insignia...real easy.
I don't believe the wrapper here under discussion is one of those. In those days, if you were going to "dude up" a piece like this, you can guarantee it would have had a cuff title and DK in gold loops (if not the real thing in cloth) sewn to it.
I am convinced that this was an unissued EM wrap (with the wide shoulder board loops still present on it today) with upgraded lining done at the same time the first insignia (the ones now on it) were put on. There is no sign of other insignia having been there before (at least in the photos we have seen).
We can discount the POW story. As another member already noted, it would be next to impossible to remove the old paint they used for this without leaving significant traces.
We'll probably never know the full antecedents of this wrap, as we don't with most of the stuff we have. It's a shame to see almost a "generational war" break out here on this forum over something like this. You younger guys have a wealth of knowledge available to you we never had the benefit of. That's a great thing and I'm glad to see it shared here. We older guys have the benefit of "getting while the getting was good" and of knowing, first hand, the personalities and events (and deals, BS and true innovation) which created this hobby. Let's just share all the knowledge for the benefit of all.
LeroyComment
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Removing paint from a wool or wool blend material would not be difficult with the chemistry available in the 1970's. Most paints will dissolve with either acetone, tolulene, turpentine, mineral spirits, or a plethora of solvents. The older the paint, the easier to break down. WWII era paint was nothing but linseed oil, turpentine, lead oxide and color pigment. Turpentine is the most likely and it's light oily residue can be completely cleaned with other solvents, like carbon tetrachloride. Modern polymer paints are a bit more difficult, but they were not in use during the WWII era. My father was a chemist and he could dissolve most anything, with patience and diligence.
I have cleaned paint spatters from a number of pieces of cloth insignia banners and flags.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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Why discount the "P" story when the person relating it says he remembers it that way?
There are good reasons for people to be concerned although it would be nice to just forget about it and move on. So your point is well taken.
Just for the sake of knowledge how would you know the Panzer tunic tabs were applied during the war.
How could anyone tell if this one was or not? There are people who claim this ability and sometimes its possible but other times it is not.Even in hand I cannot tell if this tab was post war applied. The entire collar was constructed with the same thread the tabs are sewn on with.
Bob..does it leave an odor. Because I would think it does unless you stripp the garment of insignias and wash it good afterward to rid it of oder.Last edited by John Pic; 06-24-2007, 11:41 PM.Comment
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The front of the runic for Leroys reference.Comment
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I would certainly love to see a good photo of the back of this wrapper. I went through the photographs several times and I apologize if I missed it if posted. Surely there would be tangible evidence to support the painted letter(s) on the back? I have seen US uniform coats worn by German POW's stenciled as such, that was on a tight cotton duck type fabric. If someone was able to get paint off nappy wool with its semi loose weave without damaging the fabric, they must be a chemical genius or magician. Since Bryon and Tom and have had "hands on" on this tunic they can probably attest to any tell tale signs of the lettering? If there isn't any physical evidence, did any of the people, named or unnamed, who had it in their posession, see it or a photo before paint removal?
I am another of those old farts that has been around collecting since 1967. Lets get this "generational war" started!! Ha ha...I'm just kidding of course, but I am one of those that tends to stay under the radar. I would love a "hands on" on this tunic, as I hate to render opinions without one, because of the drawbacks of digital flash photography. It does appear to me to be a factory or LAGO produced quality EM SS wrapper. It differs quite a bit from tailored pieces I have, or have seen...but Tom and Bryon have had "hands on", so I won't say impossible. Easy to agree on the relined part, I lean towards wartime. The only detractions I would mention, and these are not positive proof of anything, are the tabs appear machined on by an amateur. The tracking varies greatly as if the machine can't handle the thick wool and it doesn't look like the person sewing was experienced enough to correct the thread tension. The sleeve eagle appears handsewn by an amateur also. All the things I mentioned did happen wartime too, so its up to the individuals who have it in hand to make their own decisions. Original SS wrapper, original SS insignia, period liniing...maybe someone should start a German WWII CSI type age forensics investigative service. Very interesting thread.
Richard PComment
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In posts 13 and 15 you can see that the balck thread used in construction of the collar is different than that used to sew on the Collar tabs and the Collar piping its faded in color from age and exposure.This can be seen on many really old and worn pieces where threads are aged black fades to a dark graish color.The tabs and piping were not put on when the tunic shell was constructed.But its impossible to say when they were.Last edited by John Pic; 06-25-2007, 12:48 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by Mike Davis View Post
It's the same.? It's not .Here you also can see on period pictures that the eye is horizontal placed , otherwise it would not fit normal. I placed the eye in the picture of this wrapper where it should be. I doubt if you can close that collar.
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No it isn't, it is an Italian POW's funeral in my opinion, see tunics.Originally posted by NTZ View Post
LucaSiam fatti cosi!Comment
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you are right, Mr McInnes.
we lack solid evidence about an eventual POW story connected to the wrapper for the moment.
as ever said, ww2 period relining with worn (not mint) lining material was not uncommon; as on your nice pics.
but it is relining job, using worn material with markings done at differents time on it, wich seems to me more unusual.
derkaComment
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No you can’t! The story has been confirmed with the original owner that removed it.Originally posted by Leroy View Post
I just want to add I have been given enough info on this piece to form an opinion. I think it is exactly as stated. It was a POW tunic that still had its entire original insignia on it. The tunic you see is exactly the tunic that was pulled from the woodwork in the 1970’s (by a non-collector) sans the “P” marking. You guys can fight this one out for 10 more pages but from what I have been told it is exactly what it is being sold as. Furthermore if I had the money I would buy it right now given the details I have heard. Everything that Tom & Byron have said has been confirmed by multiple parties that were there (literally) when the tunic was found.Last edited by NTZ; 06-25-2007, 05:41 AM.Comment
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Although I do not have any records to confirm it, I believe the subject item in this thread predates this hat. And not to open "an old wound" I think the hat is a reproduction (or put perhaps a more "familiar way") I could entertain doubts.Originally posted by djpool View Post
B. N. SingerComment
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I would be glad to change my mind on the POW issue if extreme close-up photos of the normally affected areas were shown. I still think it would be tough to do without leaving SOME trace under correct lighting, however faint that trace might be. I have also done what Bob Hritz has done with paint splatters; I just feel that the larger the area involved, the harder it would be to do with 100% success.
My underlying feelings on the originality of this wrap have not changed and I still feel that it's an EM piece with officer trimmings (and a new liner) added at the same time (during the war). I wasn't there, I didn't see it, but this is my OPINION.
LeroyComment
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I think I rank up there with some of the biggest skeptics in the hobby. In fact I am probable more skeptical than the biggest skeptics.
I am sold 1000% on its originality. I would have no problem owning this tunic and having it as the main piece in my collection. I am sorry I can’t post any further details but let me just say I have never been so confident on originality before. This includes pieces I personally pulled from the woodwork. This is a true piece of history you have right here. If someone had the wherewithal they might even be able to track down its owner (The SS vet).
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