SS Panzer Wrap

[Felix]

For anyone who is still hung up on the lining and thinks the tunic is a fake take a look at post #14. The lining material on the inside cuffs is different than the inside lining. This supports the fact that the tunic was re-lined at some time. Would a faker use a different material on the cuff lining? NO!!!! They would have used the same material as the main lining.

I dont think its a fake tunic, but rather a post war renovation object with restored insignias. Arguments were raised for the liner replacements to have happened during the war but that doesnt hold water IMHO. No way a POW would be allowed to keep collar tabs and eagle on. Still it can be a nice and collectable tunic, but then again, these facts must be taken into consideration. And will surely affect the price tag.

Just my own thoughts and not necessarily the truth. A hands on inspection would have been interesting.

"Felix" - N. Hansson

[NTZ]

I dont think its a fake tunic, but rather a post war renovation object with restored insignias. Arguments were raised for the liner replacements to have happened during the war but that doesnt hold water IMHO.

"Felix" - N. Hansson

The argument regarding the lining could go both ways. If we established that the tunic is original why would someone need to re-line it post war? It would have had its original lining would it not?

[Hardigan]

So you think that you can close the collar of this tunic normal with that catch and hook ? Try to find period pictures of how it was done on this tunic.
And that fakers don't do things to decieve you ?

Hardigan

[Felix]

The argument regarding the lining could go both ways. If we established that the tunic is original why would someone need to re-line it post war? It would have had its original lining would it not?

I can agree on that! I wrote before that the only logic reason to replace an undamaged tunic would have been if tailored to fit the new owner better. Again that lining could only be a front job with shortage or real linings. And there were other things to think about than to replace the lining when enemy were attacking. Since the lining is looking rather fresh such a replacement must have happened very late in war, or more likely post war. We should not forget that in later stages of the war soldiers often kept the uniform on 24 hours a day giving them extensive wear, and soiling of the lining.

There is really no valid reason for a replacement of the liner. The most likely version is its been very soiled used as a stripped work jacket and becomming a rather smelly piece of cloth. And later replaced in a camp or by a collector. As I wrote before, during the later stages of the war a damaged lining would have been repaired with a needle and thread, and if soiled no one would have cared. I remeber vets having told that the german POW's had a special smell of leather and sweat!

I just reason out of probability for a replacement of the liner. Especially the way its been done on the example in question.

[NTZ]

So you think that you can close the collar of this tunic with that catch and hook , and that fakers don't do things to decieve you ?

Hardigan

What in the world is wrong with the hook and catch? The collar is open, if closed they would match right up.


Here is a different tunic. The hook and catch is in the same position.

[Felix]

A good sign speaking in favour of the panzer jacket is the lack of a cuff title and that its not dressed up like a christmas tree with a German cross and other things.

[BlackBelt]

NTZ,

[QUOTE=NTZ;2049623]Is anyone reading this thread in it entirety? Even though it looks like we have someone that does not want to get involved in this thread there has been a third party confirmation of this tunics origin. This third party has nothing to gain or loose in this. They never owned it nor do they know any of the recent owners. They confirmed that the tunic is in fact 100% authentic and was a POW tunic. They also confirmed where and when it was pulled from the woodwork. Sorry but fakers don’t put “P’s” on a tunic to then remove them. The fact that is was a POW tunic also explains why the lining was changed. If someone were to wear the same garment every day for a number of years in camp conditions it would make sense that the lining would get more wear than the exterior. I am sure there were individuals with tailoring experience within the camp.

What fantasy land do you live in? Wearing something from day to day in the hot Arizona sun made of black material, would at the very least be bleached to all hell on the outside, and heavily stained with sweat and grime on the inside. Camp conditions would certainly on its own provide more wear to this wrap than shown, let alone, it was also supposed to have been worn in comabt during the closing of WW2. Now look at the lettering on the elbows. The best restorer in the world, and I should now its my buisness, could not remove years of baked, worn, and rubbed paint of a sleeve made of wool, or cotton without there being bleaching to the area where the paint once sat. Suposing the unknown collector was able to remove the paint, this person would have had to re-dye the area, still making a noticable difference from the rest of the wrap condition. Now if he did all that, or even removed the paint, which by admission he did, then the wrap has been "restored", "played with" what ever description you care to use. Bottom line NOT ORIGINAL from the state from which it was found. Therefore by forum logic, it is not, and could not be viewed as untampered with. This not withstanding, so far its 40K history only takes us back to some unknown date in the 1970's (ironic). Wheres the other missing 30 or so years since the war? Considering all the inconsistencies (other collectors call "nonstandard anomolies") I wouldn't pay 10.00 bucks for this thing.

[Jens]

Interesting thread to say the least!

However very few Waffen SS jackets survived getting at least Runes stribbed.

I have never seen a picture of a WSS soldier in US captivity in the States wearing runes!

I tend to say that the chance to get your runes on a jacket where bigger in Russian captivity than in US Captivity.


I base this on sayings from several former soldiers. The russians where more interested in watches, rings and the like. The americans simply took everything, but insignia and medals where a favorite.



Weather one is an old or new collector?

I have colected since I was thirteen and that was back in the late seventies. Am I an old or new collector ? I dont know, but I do know that I have fields where I stand strong and fields that I know little of.
So bottom line I can still learn from others!

Provinense:

Well this thread shows that provinense when you buy an exspensive item, get the records as straight as possible!


Jens

[Glenn McInnes]

Hello Mr Singer,


Do you feel the jacket was re-lined during the period or is this lining original to the jacket?

Reason I ask is because I have seen tailored jackets in which liners from other jackets were re-used in the construction. One period tailored officers jacket I remember seeing had size stamps,lining materials etc from 2 different factories stamped on the linings material.

Seems to me that a lining was used from a factory produced jacket (the faded makers stamp) then re-stamped with the size markings when the tailoring was complete (perhaps done at a factory) The 1 odd size stamp (125) in this one I have seen stamped before in jackets as well that had no alterations done,or for the most part had no purpose being there.



Glenn

[Hardigan]

What in the world is wrong with the hook and catch? The collar is open, if closed they would match right up.


Here is a different tunic. The hook and catch is in the same position.

same position ? No ,it's not . The catch of the SS Off wrapper is almost placed vertical , look at period pics , they are always placed horizontal. Never seen it in another way.

[B. N. Singer]

Hello Mr Singer,


Do you feel the jacket was re-lined during the period or is this lining original to the jacket?

Reason I ask is because I have seen tailored jackets in which liners from other jackets were re-used in the construction. One period tailored officers jacket I remember seeing had size stamps,lining materials etc from 2 different factories stamped on the linings material.

Seems to me that a lining was used from a factory produced jacket (the faded makers stamp) then re-stamped with the size markings when the tailoring was complete (perhaps done at a factory) The 1 odd size stamp (125) in this one I have seen stamped before in jackets as well that had no alterations done,or for the most part had no purpose being there.



Glenn

Glenn,

As I said this is not a factory produced item in my opinion. The officer's material just is not indicative of something factory done.

My belief was this was made "by request" and that what was used was what was at hand or readily available at the moment. I don't know if it were relined or not but as the waist draw strings are present and of a similar material, I have a difficult time thinking it was done post war.

Regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

My belief was this was made "by request" and that what was used was what was at hand or readily available at the moment. I don't know if it were relined or not but as the waist draw strings are present and of a similar material, I have a difficult time thinking it was done post war.

Regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer

Hello Bryon,


This is what I am saying in my above post. I thought it likely that perhaps the tailoring might have been done at a factory upon the officers request..Hence the 42/H marking,lining materials etc.



Regards,
Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Hello Bryon,


This is what I am saying in my above post. I thought it likely that perhaps the tailoring might have been done at a factory upon the officers request..Hence the 42/H marking.



Regards,
Glenn

Sorry I did not catch your original train of thought Glenn.

And in that case yes, I could entertain that as a possible scenario.

Regards,
Bryon

[Glenn McInnes]

Glenn,

I don't know if it were relined or not but as the waist draw strings are present and of a similar material, I have a difficult time thinking it was done post war.

Regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer

Yes I agree..



Glenn

[bnz. 42]

I am not sure if I would buy this tunic but I do believe it is a good original one. This is my last post in this thread.