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    #31
    What?

    Looks like a type 1 flatwire that has been damaged and stretched. Possibly off a uniform , show me the whole band and the back.

    Comment

      #32
      Looks like an original flatwire type. Is it on a tunic with "Der Speiss" tresse?

      Comment

        #33
        Originally posted by TONY2411 View Post
        Looks like an original flatwire type.
        I agree, can we see the rest of the tunic please?

        The other hand done skull title is a joke , I also noticed on that dealers site a SS nco's jacket that has post war tress around the collar as well so that does not bode well
        Best
        John

        PS Ade Sent you a pm with the dealers site details

        Comment

          #34
          Originally posted by johnm50 View Post
          I also noticed on that dealers site a SS nco's jacket that has post war tress around the collar
          John
          I also noticed that the tunic had post war tress on the collar as well.





          Best

          Bob

          Comment

            #35
            Hi John, thanks for the PM.

            Hi Bob, I think you are right.

            Cheers, Ade.

            Comment

              #36
              Tony2411 - Here you go - comments please.
              Attached Files

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                #37
                Originally posted by Antiquefrog View Post
                Tony2411 - Here you go - comments please.
                they look like marksmen's litzens
                cheers
                Gary
                Last edited by Gary Wood; 07-05-2007, 05:38 PM.

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                  #38
                  An interesting combination that I think has been posted before. Obviously you can't rule anything out but an Oberbayern cufftile introduced in 1938 worn in conjunction with Heer shooting badges that were pretty much abandoned by the SS by 1935 (and abolished by the army in 1936) is certainly questionable.
                  Derek

                  Comment

                    #39
                    This has been posted before. It is my understanding that the SS had no lanyard for marksmanship, at any point, and used such tresse for same. It is conceivable the cufftitle has been replaced/upgraded from the Oberbayern form, but I doubt it looking at interior stitching. This intact uniform has, most remarkably, matching VA trousers, tunic and (most unusual) visor.

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                      #40
                      Upon examining this uniform (long in storage), tunic, trousers and visor (A1-15) - all three - are stamped VA 1938. Tresse perhaps reapplied to new uniform in absence of other recognition? Or - if the SS and Heer had abandoned this primitive insignia, as suggested, by 1938, what replaced it?

                      Comment

                        #41
                        You bring up an interesting and a strangely confusing point. The SS seemed to have had great difficulty making up their minds with regard to a badge for shooting, a discipline that was fairly essential as the military side of the organisation grew.
                        They definitely did allow the wearing the wearing of the old Reichswehr shooting badges, (stripes and chevrons) by members of the SS who had earned them during their service in the army. After these stripes were replaced by the lanyard in the army the SS appear not to have allowed the lanyard to be worn on SS uniform. This all happens in 1936.
                        It all gets rather complicated after that. There is the sleeve diamond insignia with circles and leaves that appears never to have been issued and according to documents was later issued to the veteran's association. There are the silver marksmanship badges made by Gahr that were initially authorised for the SS-VT but also never appear to have been given out. And finally I have seen an example of the Casberg designed citation for an SS shooting lanyard.
                        Although I have not seen a specific order or document relating to the removal of these badges that I can recall, the reason I questioned the use of the Reichswehr badges at such a late date as the Oberbayern example is that all the photographic evidence I have seen of specific individuals wearing these badges is prior to 1936 when they were abolished by the army. If anyone has a document or photograph that shows the badges in use at a later date I would be indebted to them if they could share it.
                        Thanks,
                        Derek

                        Comment

                          #42
                          While I have no such photograph, the organic nature of this Hauptsurmfuhrer uniform suggests that these tresse fall under the umbrella of similar atavisms, such as 1) crusher caps after the wear-out period; 2) tricolor insignia on helmets after mid-1940; 3) SA eagles on post-36 visors, 4) evidence of SA and SS Roehm daggers well after the Night of the Long Knives, and so on.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            I'd just like to correct my previous statement about the black sleeve diamond shooting badges appearing not to have been issued. I have double checked and found that the SS pricelists show the badges being available in the 1938 and 1939 lists (items nr. 846 - 849), so presumably they must have been authorised for wear. They are clearly listed as being for the Allgemeine-SS only.
                            Derek

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Derek - Thanks for this clarification. I have long wondered about this. Your wealth of information never ceases to amaze me.

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