Another Set, These for a Visor

[Craig Gottlieb]

From the same source as the TK tabs I posted recently, this set of 800 marked visor insignia. Thanks in advance for an informed and hearty discussion.

[Craig Gottlieb]

These are 800 marked.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Another shot.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Final post.

[bwanek1]

Were it not for the silver mark, we would all automatically declare these as obviously cast fakes and move on. However, with a little stamp of "800" added to the edge, people will be willing to consider them as a possible ultra-rare set of private purchase insignia.

I reiterate what I stated in the previous thread on this topic that without solid provenance, the best you can ever hope to say about such non-standard insignia is that they could be period made. Even to say that, you would have to eliminate doubts based on many criteria, some of which I described in the other thread.

In this case, I believe these pieces fail when measured against several of those categories.

Just my opinion, but the 800 mark on these does little to get me past my initial assessment of "cast fakes."

Brad

[Craig Gottlieb]

VERY well said. I hate to make comments before letting others post, because I don't want to color the debate. But I agree with you 100%. The best that could be said is that they "could" be private purchase examples. Psychologically speaking though, I cannot get my brain around such a scenario. When I was a Marine Officer, the last thing I was worried about was getting ultra-special EGA insignia for my visor cap. In fact, if I had some strange private purchase thing on my hat, I would be the butt of many a joke among my fellow officers.

[BenVK]

Were it not for the silver mark, we would all automatically declare these as obviously cast fakes and move on.

Couldn't agree more, let's move on!

[Gary Wood]

I must point out regarding the so called silver cap sets that I know for a fact a certain German author had sets of these made up amongst other things (not limited to just metal), readily available from the boot of his car in the 80's certainly at German shows in the south
cheers
gary

[Bob Hritz]

This set is easily recognized as a cast set. I would have no faith in these being period originals.

Bob Hritz

[bwanek1]

I think it necessary to give credit where credit is due and point out that, in that other thread, my good friend Dan did ultimately provide what sounds like, according to his own description, fairly good eye-witness testimony from a reliable source that custom-made silver insignia were ordered by at least some very senior SS officers.

That being said, surviving sets today could only be described as ultra-rare. Furthermore, since silver duplicates of original SS cap insignia have been produced in abundance since the 60's, often in the exact same manner as they would have been in the 30's and 40's, there is no way to conclusively determine their originality (again, in the absence of iron-clad provenance).

I would personally have a tough time being able to convince myself that any set I encountered were unquestionably original to period. To me, there would almost always be some element of doubt, regardless of the source. Those doubts would increase exponentially when large sums of money become involved in the equation.

For those of you who are willing to make the leap of faith that the veteran you are dealing with is not trying to con you to supplement his fixed income or that there has been no chance whatsoever that someone in the chain of custody over sixty years made a substitution (intentionally or due to simple error), good for you. Enjoy such items in your collections. You will not find any in mine.

[LUCKYFEZ]

I think it necessary to give credit where credit is due and point out that, in that other thread, my good friend Dan did ultimately provide what sounds like, according to his own description, fairly good eye-witness testimony from a reliable source that custom-made silver insignia were ordered by at least some very senior SS officers.

That being said, surviving sets today could only be described as ultra-rare. Furthermore, since silver duplicates of original SS cap insignia have been produced in abundance since the 60's, often in the exact same manner as they would have been in the 30's and 40's, there is no way to conclusively determine their originality (again, in the absence of iron-clad provenance).

I would personally have a tough time being able to convince myself that any set I encountered were unquestionably original to period. To me, there would almost always be some element of doubt, regardless of the source. Those doubts would increase exponentially when large sums of money become involved in the equation.

For those of you who are willing to make the leap of faith that the veteran you are dealing with is not trying to con you to supplement his fixed income or that there has been no chance whatsoever that someone in the chain of custody over sixty years made a substitution (intentionally or due to simple error), good for you. Enjoy such items in your collections. You will not find any in mine.

I agree completely, that provenance is the key when dealing with solid silver insignia. The only legit examples I have ever seen were the ones listed on the other thread per description, and one shown. The Waffen-SS veteran is very reliable, and even by his own account these were on an exceptional basis among senior officers. The one pictured here lack the dimension, and detail found on the known originals. A very muddy area of collecting.

Dan