I think that we are at the point now where no more debates are needed. After all, if one does not believe in history, who cares? "To each his own", as they said.. So let's just stop this pointless/senseless "Human Hair used for SS.." thread 
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These pictures do not proof a thing.
These are just pictures of hairs, that's it.
As said the museum description mean nothing to me.
Just my two cents.
Cheers
TComment
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And "as said" who cares what you care or what you dont?
Are you Jesus?
You dont like this thread?
You got plenty of other nice threads out there, just change page and go there, why not?
Noboby force you to post here.
I've always been polite answering to the guys here and I dont understand your way to bullying people as you did with me.Comment
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OK guys, I think this thread has about run it's course. No need to fall out.
Cheers, Ade.Comment
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Yes, I just read the first page of this thread and I have to point out again that the SS was not a volunteer organization despite what people may think. I talk to a Panzermann veteran from Großdeutschland and he said one of his best friends wanted to join Kriegsmarine, but at night he was kidnapped and put into the SS.Comment
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At the risk of stirring up a hornets' nest, these are the facts, whether or not anyone's particular politics agree with them:Originally posted by Fritz View Post
Jews were viewed as "enemy aliens" in Germany and the occupied territories due primarily to the global economic boycott that had been declared "on behalf of the Jews of the world" by New York attorney Samuel Untermeyer on Columbia radio against the German nation in 1933 with the appointment of Adolf Hitler as German chancellor. This is not a mere "conspiracy theory." It actually occurred, and there is ample documentation for it. Interestingly, this boycott had not at any point been rescinded by anyone in the Jewish leadership in the years that followed, even when things were getting rough for Jews in the camps on the account of war shortages.
Therefore, according to the 1930s German point of view, once the war had begun, Jews were rightly placed in holding camps for their own protection against the wrath of angry German citizens, if for no other reason. Another very strong motive was, of course, the stern realization that Jews (Lenin, Trotsky, Kaganovich, Yagoda, et al.) were dominant in the Bolshevik movement in Russia, which had unleashed the Red Terror. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, for many Germans, this was a nightmare image, constantly before the eyes. Millions of innocent Russians were murdered by these Jewish men, and I see no real sense in playing any of it down for reasons of "sensitivity." Murder is murder.
As the National Socialist policy went, Jews were to be placed in concentration camps until they could be relocated elsewhere in the world upon a victorious conclusion of the war for Germany, whether it be in Palestine, on Madagascar, or perhaps to the United States and/or central Russia. A great many had already emigrated to these places even prior to the war, save for Madagascar. One must also consider that those "left behind" in Europe were rather callously regarded by Zionist leaders as "lesser brethren," which of course explains the relative lack of effort on their part to remove them with any degree of haste.
In addition, there had been several unsubstantiated rumors of a "holocaust" of Jews as early as World War I, even one published in a Jewish newspaper numbering exactly six million. So, it stands to reason that some within the Jewish leadership were actually in the business of promoting a massacre of mind-numbing proportion, so as to elicit sympathy for the Zionist cause of creating a Jewish state in Palestine. But we owe it to ourselves as sentient persons to ask: Was it ever real?
As for the concentration camp, it bears particular noting that the British invented them as well as the term "concentration camp" specifically for South African Boers during the Boer War. Many innocent women and children died a miserable death in those camps. Franklin Delano Roosevelt placed Japanese and Germans in internment camps on similar grounds (as "enemy aliens") beginning in 1941 - months before the Germans had even begun operations in Auschwitz. Today, George W. Bush is currently incarcerating so-called "enemy combattants" in Guantanamo Bay in total violation of habeas corpus laws. Plus c'est change plus c'est le m******234;me chose.
So, the point I would like to make is that the Germans do not have a proprietary relationship to the concept of the concentration camp. It is time for honest folks everywhere to abandon any idea to the contrary, unless one enjoys being a victim of false propaganda. We get nowhere entertaining ridiculous lies and misconceptions - like human hair being used in the making of cloth - all for the sake of our perhaps misguided politics. Certainly, it is not the way to advance as civilized people.Last edited by Leslie Hiler; 12-09-2006, 08:53 PM.Comment
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AmenComment
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Lesilie -
"Jews were viewed as "enemy aliens" in Germany and the occupied territories due primarily to the global economic boycott that had been declared "on behalf of the Jews of the world" by New York attorney Samuel Untermeyer on Columbia radio against the German nation in 1933 with the appointment of Adolf Hitler as German chancellor. This is not a mere "conspiracy theory." It actually occurred, and there is ample documentation for it. Interestingly, this boycott had not at any point been rescinded by anyone in the Jewish leadership in the years that followed, even when things were getting rough for Jews in the camps on the account of war shortages"
The Jews were not viewed as 'enemy aliens' in Germany. Nowhere in Europe were Jews more intergrated into society than in Germany. The boycott was simply a pretext, Hitler and the National Socialist's had been targeting Jews since the 1920's. The Nazi's were only capitalizing on undercurrent of anti-Semitism that had existed for centuries, it had nothing to do with the boycott...Do you seriously believe that the suffering of Jews in the camps was of because of the economic ramifications it placed on Nazi Germany? Your logic here is completely flawed. You are implying that Jewish suffering was increased because of Jewish leadership's decision not to recind the boycott. That's blaming the victim! The suffering of the Jews in the camps was not their own fault, nor the fault of the Int'l Jewish community, it was the policies of the Nazi regime! Do you think that as Nazi Germany was waging war all over Europe and exterminating the Jewish people that the Int'l Jewish community should have lifted the ban and provided them with more resources to achieve their goals?
"Therefore, according to the 1930s German point of view, once the war had begun, Jews were rightly placed in holding camps for their own protection against the wrath of angry German citizens, if for no other reason. Another very strong motive was, of course, the stern realization that Jews (Lenin, Trotsky, Kaganovich, Yagoda, et al.) were dominant in the Bolshevik movement in Russia, which had unleashed the Red Terror. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, for many Germans, this was a nightmare image, constantly before the eyes. Millions of innocent Russians were murdered by these Jewish men, and I see no real sense in playing any of it down for reasons of "sensitivity." Murder is murder."
This is B.S. Jews were being placed in camps long before the war and most certainly not as protection from the wrath of angry German citizens. So if 'Murder is Murder' do you not think it was wrong for the Nazi regime to murder millions of innocent Jews, Poles, Gypsies, etc? Was this necessary for the protection of the German people?
"As for the concentration camp, it bears particular noting that the British invented them as well as the term "concentration camp" specifically for South African Boers during the Boer War. Many innocent women and children died a miserable death in those camps. Franklin Delano Roosevelt placed Japanese and Germans in internment camps on similar grounds (as "enemy aliens") beginning in 1941 - months before the Germans had even begun operations in Auschwitz. Today, George W. Bush is currently incarcerating so-called "enemy combattants" in Guantanamo Bay in total violation of habeas corpus laws."
Yes, the British are credited with the development of the idea of a 'Concentration Camp'. However, I hardly think it's appropriate to try to compare the English/American models to the German. And most certainly, if you are going to bring Auschwitz into the discussion you have to understand that along with (Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sorbibor, and Treblinka) that these were Death camps with the purpose of exterminating entires races of people. There is no comparison!
"So, the point I would like to make is that the Germans do not have a proprietary relationship to the concept of the concentration camp. It is time for honest folks everywhere to abandon any idea to the contrary, unless one enjoys being a victim of false propaganda. We get nowhere entertaining ridiculous lies and misconceptions - like human hair being used in the making of cloth - all for the sake of our perhaps misguided politics. Certainly, it is not the way to advance as civilized people."
The Germans indeed do have a proprietary relationship to the concentration camp. They may not have invented the concept, but it certainly took on a unique and far more destructive form than others...With regards to lies and misconceptions, please understand that the use of human hair by the Nazi's has been documented by the allies at Nuremberg and not is something that is debated any serious scholar. The question of whether it was used in the production of SS uniforms is another question entirely and one that as yet has not been proven/disproven.
Leslie, you are either reading the worst reference material available on these topics, or worse you truly believe the things you have written. If the former is the case, this is nothing that can't be corrected, but if it is the latter I'm afraid there is nothing more to discuss. The Holocaust was the most well-documented crime in history and ignorance of the facts does not make them untrue.
JohnLast edited by InfanterieSammler; 12-09-2006, 10:50 PM.Comment
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Excellent Rebuttal
Well said John.
Sincerely,
Charles BetzComment
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Ok, you're getting really ridiculous now. Many people disagree with the WWII internment camps in the U.S., but to compare them to Nazi concentration camps is ludicrous. And these "so-called enemy combatants" in Gitmo were taken prisoner in the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are prisoners of war -- and out of uniform at that. And instead of being shot as spies, they receive taxpayer-provided prayer rugs, copies of the Koran, and one of their biggest problems is now obesity.Originally posted by Leslie Hiler View Post
Did Germany have habeas corpus laws in effect for the Jews in concentration camps? Government provided attorneys? How about for prisoners of war?
I believe you are a Holocaust denier, and are just afraid to come right out and say it. So, you find straw man arguments to try to make your points.
Can you find ONE concentration camp survivor that felt they had been protected during their stay?Comment
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I believe you are a Gitmo denier and I disagree with your GB BS, Gitmo is NO different from any KZ, you either rise above the bull**** or you'll be forever in it's throesOriginally posted by CurtD View PostComment
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listen guys were all different and all have different views, lets respect them all, to divert away from the bickering ,if indeed the hair thing was proved to of been used in uniforma and lets face it, caps ,visors etc, who would be willing to give these up on moral ground, with 5000 quid for a tunic and 2000 for a visor?????
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We are not coming any further.
There are believers and non-believers.
For the moment this is becoming an useless discussion with people becoming angry on both sides.Comment
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The Jews were not viewed as 'enemy aliens' in Germany. Nowhere in Europe were Jews more intergrated into society than in Germany.
That is true especialy if one compairs that with eastern european countries where one could find a huge anti semitism. But it got worse in germany especialy from the mid 30s on. Still in ww1 and before I can't remember of any negative reports. But it should be mentioned that the last german Kaiser became a very eager anti semit after ww1.
This is B.S. Jews were being placed in camps long before the war and most certainly not as protection from the wrath of angry German citizens.
That is not 100% correct, remember that the first big "strike against jews" took place on november 9th 1938. "Long before" the war you could find communists, homosexual, "lazy" people and "asozioale" (I believe you call them "white trash") in KLs like Dachau etc.. Some of them where jews naturally but they were prisoners for other reasons ...mainly for being communists as far as jews were concerned. And the pre war
camps were no Vernichtungslager (death camps).
Yes, the British are credited with the development of the idea of a 'Concentration Camp'. However, I hardly think it's appropriate to try to compare the English/American models to the German. And most certainly, if you are going to bring Auschwitz into the discussion you have to understand that along with (Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sorbibor, and Treblinka) that these were Death camps with the purpose of exterminating entires races of people. There is no comparison!
I even heard it were the US americans that had the first camps for native americans. I agree with you that the intention of the majority of the US and british camps was not to kill anybody. But still it is a crime to put anbody that commited no crime in such a camp...japanese, german, italian....native american....boers...jews...doesn't matter.
The Germans indeed do have a proprietary relationship to the concentration camp. They may not have invented the concept, but it certainly took on a unique and far more destructive form than others...With regards to lies and misconceptions, please understand that the use of human hair by the Nazi's has been documented by the allies at Nuremberg and not is something that is debated any serious scholar. The question of whether it was used in the production of SS uniforms is another question entirely and one that as yet has not been proven/disproven.
John, I wouldn't give too much on things that were "documented" at nürnberg. They should have left up the whole nürnberg issue to neutral countries but they didn't. Normaly the judge is not the victim of the crime that he judges about. The results of the "nürnberg show" have never been accepted by the german state.
It is true that we don't know yet if this type of fabric was used for uniforms....I still doubt it.
Let me also say that it was not "only" the jews that were effected but MANY others as well. John mentioned a few. If one talks about the issue it is mainly the jews that are being attacked or defended. Don't forget about the large rest.
Cheers
FritzComment
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