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**pete** · 12-06-2006, 09:53 AM

This is the only politics Ill bring into this because this aint about politics.

Im not going to rise to that one mate for whatever your "purpose" is, and for me I am starting to believe its trolling with those naive comments. But in response after (FOR REAL, NOT IN UNIVERSITY OR FROM MY CHAIR) having been to Bosnia 3 times, Iraq 2 times, Sudan 3 times, and Kosovo albania and seeing the true colours of people trying to enslave others and the "by product" i firmly belive that: They who really belived in their master plan got what they deserved in direct reflection of what they dished out when the Russians came to town and the vast majority of those who turned the blind eye did too. I have no sympathy except for the innocent who were too young to know.

We are not here to demonstrate falsehoods of the german people mate. This hobby is alot more advanced and detailed then alot of people will accept but then again I endured years of ridiculous comments in the army labelling me a nazi just because I collect or research this stuff. You do realize the US Govt and other Govts have actually studied the German textile industry to improve their own ( because of its complex nature and how far they managed to stretch it) and there have been books written about it to support our collecting area. Why: because in the long run people spend money on these things, and not 100$. We Keep up with the fakes which are getting better and better and we have no other choice. We also have not all seen everything. This isnt coin collecting where we know every model produced. We are talking about a system stretched beyond normal limits and materials which had been bombed out of existance.

For example, this point about the 1930s helmet Jerry had. If his helmet was made with these materials and they are tested and we see that they are what we think they are then what? WE can say, was the helmet liner reworked at a later date, or, were there "things" going on much earlier then we ever thought or knew about from documents that we could also prove by seeing other diffrent examples of clothing and equipment produced at the same time and for the objective prove items authentic or not? And, does that tie in with actual history, as sick as it obviously is. With all this we enhance our broad collectors knowledge and defences.

**Lassi** · 12-06-2006, 10:26 AM

Hi guys this is a very interesting thread

While reading this thread I came to think of a clip, with a young HJ member going from door to door saying Heil Hitler haben sie Knochen? Heil Hitler do you have leftover bones? They were used to make explosives out of late in the war. I´m not trying to sound hart less (because I feel sorry for the people who suffered during the war)
But from a economic view it looks different. Shaving peoples heads to avoid lice epidemic among the prisoners seems reasonable. Throwing out the hair seems foolish If you cane use it for a purpose like cloth etc. Thinking of the supply situation late in the war.

I don´t know if hair was ever used but It seems reasonably and would be interesting to know for sure

Cheers
Lassi

**jacquesf** · 12-06-2006, 10:35 AM

I think you need to wake up and smell the roses. There is no denying that severe atrocities were commited by the german army and other armies as well, but the germans and russians spesifically mistreated and campaigned against the civilians as well.

It serves no purposes to misrepresent history. I have quite a substantial collection and I collect because I have an interest in military history, especially German WWII. I also have read a lot and studied the subject. Against this objective background, I feel one should make informed statements regarding this subject and denying the German actions in starting and escalating WWII is plain ignorant. Jacques

Originally posted by Leslie Hiler View Post

Exactly. My point is that without a DNA test, to summarily conclude that the hair is human is jumping to what is perhaps a desired conclusion. Moreover, to insist upon the inclusion of old, unsubstantiated rumors among the litany of other alleged German atrocities (only some of which can be said to be truly "documented") indicates no other intention beyond group libel.

In point of fact, the German military (to include even the SS) was one of the most disciplined and honorable militaries in history. One need only compare the behavior of German soldiers to that of Soviet soldiers and their deplorable treatment of German civilians in the former eastern territories of Germany at war's end to understand the absolute truth of this statement.

At any rate, to continue attributing demonstrable falsehoods to the Germans is not in any way different from the "Blood Libel" so often levelled against Jews in the past. As for the apparent skittishness regarding the so-called "discovery" of human hair in a WWII relic, why are you bothering with the collection of such items in the first place?

**Jerry45** · 12-06-2006, 11:47 AM

Hair

You are correct it is impossible to say who's hair it was. Was it donated from Germans, or was it it from camp victims ? An educated geuss would say, if German people donated their hair for the war effort would probably go to the multitude of Whermacht items. The SS was it's own entity & drew it's own financing itself. So since the helmet was not a Heer or Luftwaffee helmet & was directly associated to the SS being a Sicherheitsdienst/Einsatzgruppen helmet would seem pretty logical it came from people the SS were in charge of.....I've never heard of "German populace hair drives" have you ? Also the SS had millions of people at their disposal whom they were going to dispose of anyway, so why not use their hair or instead they should just waste it & throw it away & look towards the German people to donate it, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Again, no I cannot prove that but it does make logical sense especially with the connection to SS resources. The helmet was an SS product, plain & simple. You can draw any conclusions you like from it, or any opinions you like, the fact remains it happened at least that once, & I really doubt they only made one helmet that way. Do you actually think for one minute, the SS camp system that was exterminating undocumented amounts of people would actually waste any biproducts it deemed usefull, hardly. Anyway I just offered this one example that "human hair" was used to some extent in the manufacturing of war goods. Why collect this stuff ? Because I enjoy Military history, not the camps. Why are you here ??? Why do you collect it ????

**CWP** · 12-06-2006, 12:01 PM

German helmets were padded with horse hair in WWI. I believe that hair used for a cushion inside any helmet is almost certainly horse hair.

**Jerry45** · 12-06-2006, 12:18 PM

Hair

Chris, the helmet I had was not horse hair. How widespread the use was can only be speculated.

**Fritz** · 12-06-2006, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Chris Pittman View Post

German helmets were padded with horse hair in WWI. I believe that hair used for a cushion inside any helmet is almost certainly horse hair.

Yes and the ss probably didn't produce their own helmets but bought them from helmet makers instead. And these were the same makers that produced for the army etc..

Cheers

Fritz

**Jeff S** · 12-06-2006, 12:48 PM

DNA evidence wouldn't be necessary. A sample under a good microscope would be enough. I did something just like this in college, having to identify different animals hair, horse, dog, cat, deer, rabbit, human. It wouldn't be hard to find out for sure without going to the trouble and expense of a DNA analysis..

All that being said, its common knowledge that many inmates heads were shaved for the reasons noted numerous times above. I also would be very surprised if the hair wasn't used for something militarily related.

**B. N. Singer** · 12-06-2006, 12:48 PM

How about this one, I heard somewhere, sometime, that "human hair was used for the water tight caulking on torpedoes" !?!?!?

B. N. Singer

**Bob Hritz** · 12-06-2006, 12:54 PM

Bryon,

Human hair was used for waterproof gaskets. Human hair will absorb more water than most other animal hair, which causes the hair to swell. Gaskets, when needed to be waterproof, can be made of human hair, impregnated with schellac (gasket shellac) which will expand when the edges get wet and ensure a tighter seal.

I believe the Oswald Pohl reports mention that human hair was delivered to a concern for making of waterproof gaskets and washers.

All types of hair are excellent for insulation purposes as they will mat down, but keep enough air space to act as an insulating factor. Horse hair was used for the 'Russian Front' overboots, and it is not impossible for hiuman hair to be used for these also. Mostly, hair is excellent bedding material and blanket material.

The reason wool is used, for blankets, is the watershedding ability of wool, with it's natural lanolin. Wool will get wet, but the individual hairs do not expand and hold water to the degree of human hair. A pillow with wool fill will not expand when wet, other than the amount of water that is held. A pillow with human hair will expand greatly, to nearly double the hair diameter, plus the water that is held, which could result in the rupture of the pillow.

The line of equine is one of the few mammals that have sweat glands, all over the body. If you have ever had to brush down a frothy, sweaty horse, you will note the moisture works its way to the surface and can be brushed off. Such is the water repellancy of horse hair. this makes it perfect for padding and insulation, when you don't want long-term absortion of moisture.

Just as a dog will shake away water and quickly be dry, a human is the opposite. Human hair absorbes more than it's weight of moisture and retains it longer than animal hair.

Bob Hritz

**B. N. Singer** · 12-06-2006, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Bryon,

Human hair was used for waterproof gaskets. Human hair will absorb more water than most other animal hair, which causes the hair to swell. Gaskets, when needed to be warweproof, can be made of human hair, impregnated with schellac (gasket shellac) which will expand when the edges get wet and ensure a tighter seal.

I believe the Oswald Pohl reports mention that human hair was delivered to a concern for making of waterproof gaskets and washers.

All types of hair are excellent for insulation purposes as they will mat down, but keep enough air space to act as an insulating factor. Horse hair was used for the 'Russian Front' overboots, and it is not impossible for hiuman hair to be used for these also. Mostly, hair is excellent bedding material and blanket material. Bob Hritz

Excellent Mr. Hritz, thank you.

To me, it stands to reason that a peoples' as frugal as the Germans were known to be; and given the fact that "mounds" were found at war's end, would indicate there was some "practical" use found for human hair.

B. N. Singer

**Bob Hritz** · 12-06-2006, 01:04 PM

Bryon,

That 'mounds' of human hair was found, leads me to the opposite conclusion: that there were far fewer uses for human hair than envisioned.

Bob Hritz

**B. N. Singer** · 12-06-2006, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Bryon,

That 'mounds' of human hair was found, leads me to the opposite conclusion: that there were far fewer uses for human hair than envisioned.

Bob Hritz

Yes Bob, probably only a few; and leave it to the Germans to find some.

B. N. Singer

**djpool** · 12-06-2006, 01:29 PM

I don't have anything to add about the human hair discussion but I did want to make a point about Italian Wool. The italians perfected the process of making a synthetic wool from milk casein prior to the war. I can't imagine why they would need to mix in human hairs to augment their wool production. anyway here are some facts about Lanital.
Milk fibres were the first commercially viable azlons. Dr Frederich Todtenhaupt, a chemist, patented a German ‘casein silk’ fibre in 1904 but his company Deutsche Kunstseidenfabrik went bankrupt in 1919. Antonia Ferretti developed an improved process which was used by Snia Viscosa, an important Italian synthetic fibre manufacturer, for two commercial fibres – Lanital and Merinova. Mussolini actively supported these fibres as part of his programme of Italian economic self-sufficiency: ‘Carcad******233; (hibiscus tea) replaces tea, lignite replaces coal, Lanital replaces wool’.

NAME: Lanital<O></O>
DATE INTRODUCED:Lanital was the first successful fiber made of milk casein.It was an ItalianAntonio Ferretti who perfected the process and was issued a patent by the Italian government in 1935. In 1938 a patent was granted to the United States Department of Agriculture for making of casein fiber using a different method than that used<O></O>
in making lanital. In 1940 a casein fiber known as aralac was announced. The physical and chemical properties are similar to the Italian product, lanital <O></O>
DESCRIPTION: First successful commercial fiber made of milk casein. Chemically, lanital is quite similar to wool and can be dyed with the same kinds of dyes. Moths will not attack it, and it does not shrink as much as wool but mildews easily when damp.<O

></O

>
OTHER NAMES: Arlac in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">United States</ST1lace></st1:country-region> <O></O>
IDENTIFICATION: It burns with the same characteristic odor as wool, but does not have the surface scales that wool fibers have.The casein fibers cannot be distinguished from wool fibers by chemical or burn tests. They have practically the same chemical composition as wool and both have the odor of feathers when burned, leaving a black crisp ash. Both wool and casein fibers are easily dissolved in alkali's and are resistant to acids.<O></O>
<O></O>

**JOHN JONES** · 12-06-2006, 05:26 PM

Just to concur with Bob, in " I escaped from Auschwitz " Rudolph Vrba
who worked on the 'Canada' area and the ' ramp', was told the hair was
used in the manufacture of seals for torpedo's.
I am not sure what volume that takes, but I presume the SS ' by products'
deptartment or whatever they were called, would have searched for other
possible customers.
Is shorn human hair stronger than man made fibres, does it take cloth dyes
light colour hair would be better than black, was the hair found sub-sorted?
The whole stinking affair was run on the cheap, from those that were forced to cut it, to those that were forced to bag it .......
Is possible uniforms in collections have that content ( post 1943 uniforms?)
you would need a lab to examine your examples.
Although no way on a par, its kind of like the old ivory, binning it will not
bring back the Elephant .... you can stretch it out to many things, all KZ sewn
items might have been stitched by a worker who got pushed in the oven, if
the SS QA did not like her turnout. And army rucksacks were sewn by straving
people in the Warshaw ghetto factories.

It best just to think of the military and design aspects, but NEVER FORGET
what will taint those forever..........

Cheers,
John.

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