Ss Smock Opinion

[Lorenz]

Phild,
you buyed the "pink " smock in the e-stand?
With all respect if you really belive in your suppositions could be a good investement for the future for you, a regular smock in oakleaf/plan tree in second pattern is valued between Eur7000 and Eur 9000.....this offered in the e-stand and now on hold is almost a "present"....for the same price I can found some other exemples for you
Mike,
I'm completely agree with you, also the cloths involved in the construction of the Dot parà smock are all original...in the Pink smock there is nothing of WW II era.
...and the Egiptian made a Oakleaf A zeltbahn that is very very good and more similar to the original SS. Just instead the autumn side have a desert camo printed .
In the early 80 the copy were very bad in almost all, like this for the pink smock...we can see also in the thread of the fake SS insigna...very bad to start...with the time always better... same for the early camo copy...now the Fake SS camo smock that you can see on e-bay are great! beautiful...and sure more credible of the pink smock...IMO
Lorenz

Mike,

The figure that you cite for June 1940 was ( I believe and I'm sorry if I am wrong) was a delivery on a "batch" that they had been working up for a while. I don't believe that these smocks were ever made in near that quantitiy every month....but I do agree that 2000 is a low number for a "special contract. There are explainations for why the number made could have been fairly low, why the attrition could have been very high (it was for all types of smocks as I would say that only a fraction of 1% of all made still survive today) but I also realize that speculation is not fact and does not advance our understanding of these.

What you have to realize about my coments on the pink dot pattern is that there really was NO information easily available on these or much anything else 35-40 years ago. We all have very limited and very general collecting references in 1970 or so. We all are shaped by what has become "accepted" as period orignal and I understand that but I also know that those boundries or not always 100% correct and they change all of the time at lest a little.

As to the 2nd model pith helmets. I have heard quantities from good sources and I have even seen a phtoograph of the inside of the storage building of numbers from 20,000 to 60,000....So I think that I reacall 40,000 but it could have been half that or 50% more! It is a fact that there were huge quantities of un-issued tropical gear and uniforms found in several locations in Europe as late as the 1970s and 80s and may be even today! I have seen bales of tunics in Germany and bundles of OS caps...all 100% still tied in some cases.

[phild]

Phild,
you buyed the "pink " smock in the e-stand?
With all respect if you really belive in your suppositions could be a good investement for the future for you, a regular smock in oakleaf/plan tree in second pattern is valued between Eur7000 and Eur 9000.....this offered in the e-stand and now on hold is almost a "present"....for the same price I can found some other exemples for you
Mike,
I'm completely agree with you, also the cloths involved in the construction of the Dot parà smock are all original...in the Pink smock there is nothing of WW II era.
...and the Egiptian made a Oakleaf A zeltbahn that is very very good and more similar to the original SS. Just instead the autumn side have a desert camo printed .
In the early 80 the copy were very bad in almost all, like this for the pink smock...we can see also in the thread of the fake SS insigna...very bad to start...with the time always better... same for the early camo copy...now the Fake SS camo smock that you can see on e-bay are great! beautiful...and sure more credible of the pink smock...IMO
Lorenz

Lorenz,

Thanks for the tips,but I have no finiancial interest or investment interest in the pink smocks being proven as original or fake. I do own one that I bought in 1981 in Germany for around $250 which was the going rate at the time although sometimes you could find one with damage or inked out (or cut out)pocket stampings for around 2/3rds that amount.

I'm not trying to insist that these are original, but I am trying to understand them as fakes (or post war make for post war armies) if that is indeed the case. I started really looking at mine when I bought it and more after I got it home. There was no doubt at the time that this was not just like other type 2 smocks that I had seen, but it was and is WAY different from any repro/fake that am or was aware of as well.

To keep things in perspective, it is easy to sit back now with volumns of fine references, the internet, mega relic shows and mega collections and play god on what is good and what is not. It is also very easy to believe that we have seen, identified, catagorized and understand every variation of about everything that was produced during WWII.

While I do not believe the above view I see many who do. I can tell you that back in 1980 I don't think that there was one collector who had seen personally every pattern of original SS smock and if there was the information was certainly not well understood.

Right now no dealer is going to offer a pink smock as an original because they can not prove it and they will not withstand the ridicule of many should they offer it as original.....that alone has keep the value of these way off from the accepted originals.....I understand that, but it does NOT make these smocks fakes. If they are fake it is because they can be shown to have been produced post 45 not because some expert or dealer says that they are fake.

I think that Pete's views regarding the testing of the dyes and fabric of some of these may very well settle at least the question if they are pre45 or not. Either way the test goes there will still be many other questions but if the elastic, dyes and fabric are all consistant with what was being used in that area during WWII I will be satisfied that are in fact period.

[Lorenz]

Phild,
I understand what you think about the pink smock, now, about 28 years later the value of the pink smock it'isnt changed on the market, not much.
After new books, references and a lot of war time pictures, we never saw a pink smock in use in real pictures of war time..
It'isn based on the references my bad opinion on the pink smock, but after examinated hundreds of original pieces. All cloths involved in the construction arent the WWII era and it's evident.The cotton, it'isnt the called "cotton duck", this type of cotton, used for the SS, WH, etc zeltbahn, smocks, cover etc it'isnt simple cotton, it have inside some weaving caracteristics, that it's possible read better in the prefaction of the Beaver book an the SS camouflage, that a normal cotton dont have.
One of the most important caracteristic was the protection by the water, and wasnt only with the addiction of chemical additive, but also the fibers composition of this cloth, when weet, change and give a protection against the water etc.
The cotton of the pink smock is normally cotton, yes the German Army used normal cotton, but to do sheets!
I know in apparence the cotton of the pink smocks seams like the last cotton duck of the last SS zelts, the one to understand that you can found often without buttons and buttonholes, more thick and with strong colors, but one time put in the water, you can really see the difference...the consistence.
Never saw a SS smock sewed with this thread, in this size...with this elastics...for what I heard some years agò they are Czech production, postwar, they used for some time German equipment, also original smocks modificated and also they made this pink smock for they use.
By the way, always interesting hear other informations and exchange opinions.
Lorenz

Lorenz,

Thanks for the tips,but I have no finiancial interest or investment interest in the pink smocks being proven as original or fake. I do own one that I bought in 1981 in Germany for around $250 which was the going rate at the time although sometimes you could find one with damage or inked out (or cut out)pocket stampings for around 2/3rds that amount.

I'm not trying to insist that these are original, but I am trying to understand them as fakes (or post war make for post war armies) if that is indeed the case. I started really looking at mine when I bought it and more after I got it home. There was no doubt at the time that this was not just like other type 2 smocks that I had seen, but it was and is WAY different from any repro/fake that am or was aware of as well.

To keep things in perspective, it is easy to sit back now with volumns of fine references, the internet, mega relic shows and mega collections and play god on what is good and what is not. It is also very easy to believe that we have seen, identified, catagorized and understand every variation of about everything that was produced during WWII.

While I do not believe the above view I see many who do. I can tell you that back in 1980 I don't think that there was one collector who had seen personally every pattern of original SS smock and if there was the information was certainly not well understood.

Right now no dealer is going to offer a pink smock as an original because they can not prove it and they will not withstand the ridicule of many should they offer it as original.....that alone has keep the value of these way off from the accepted originals.....I understand that, but it does NOT make these smocks fakes. If they are fake it is because they can be shown to have been produced post 45 not because some expert or dealer says that they are fake.

I think that Pete's views regarding the testing of the dyes and fabric of some of these may very well settle at least the question if they are pre45 or not. Either way the test goes there will still be many other questions but if the elastic, dyes and fabric are all consistant with what was being used in that area during WWII I will be satisfied that are in fact period.

[phild]

Has anyone done a blacklight test on these smocks? I've been reading these threads and I don't recall anyone doing a blacklight test.

UV light tells you nothing relative to the period of the item except when used on WHITE items to show the use of whitners/brightners...even then it is not possible to absolutly conclude pre or post 45 manufacture. It is very unlikey that this type of fabric would have had brightners used on it (prior and of course after printing) even if made today.

[phild]

Phild,
I understand what you think about the pink smock, now, about 28 years later the value of the pink smock it'isnt changed on the market, not much.
After new books, references and a lot of war time pictures, we never saw a pink smock in use in real pictures of war time..
It'isn based on the references my bad opinion on the pink smock, but after examinated hundreds of original pieces. All cloths involved in the construction arent the WWII era and it's evident.The cotton, it'isnt the called "cotton duck", this type of cotton, used for the SS, WH, etc zeltbahn, smocks, cover etc it'isnt simple cotton, it have inside some weaving caracteristics, that it's possible read better in the prefaction of the Beaver book an the SS camouflage, that a normal cotton dont have.
One of the most important caracteristic was the protection by the water, and wasnt only with the addiction of chemical additive, but also the fibers composition of this cloth, when weet, change and give a protection against the water etc.
The cotton of the pink smock is normally cotton, yes the German Army used normal cotton, but to do sheets!
I know in apparence the cotton of the pink smocks seams like the last cotton duck of the last SS zelts, the one to understand that you can found often without buttons and buttonholes, more thick and with strong colors, but one time put in the water, you can really see the difference...the consistence.
Never saw a SS smock sewed with this thread, in this size...with this elastics...for what I heard some years agò they are Czech production, postwar, they used for some time German equipment, also original smocks modificated and also they made this pink smock for they use.
By the way, always interesting hear other informations and exchange opinions.
Lorenz

Lorenz,

Thanks for the in depth information, most of this I agree with. I will say that the price of these smocks can be found selling for a wide range, but I will conceed that generally the price is fairly low and this is for the reason that I stated in my least post. Perception that they are or MAY be post war is about the only reason for the lower prices.

I have heard for many years..maybe decades about possible CZ Army origin and I can entertain that as a possibility...however that needs a huge burden of proof...just as big or bigger than to say that they are 100% orginal German WWII....I'm sure that you would agree with that? The stampings in the pockets that can be found in some of these is very unlike any CZ Army property stamps that I have ever seen...and I've seen a lot.

[phild]

I may as well state again that I am not claiming this fabric in question to be the same as German fabric in regards to water resistance (German fabric was NOT water proof) or in exact fiber content or weave, but merely an approxaimation...often know as ersatz or replacement for what was the standard.

Everyone knows that hbt was used for SS (and other smocks) for example and everyone knows that hbt has no water resistance qualities for instance.

Pete's test has revealed that the pink smock material has the same thickness of other SS smock fabric not a period bed sheet!

I do not know for a fact and I wonder how anyone else does that the pink smock materail is 100% cotton or 80% cotton and 20% rayon for example I've never met anyone who could eyeball carefully mixed fiber so similar and say exactly what the mix was. Nor do I know what it proves either way if the fabric is 100% cotton?

The application of the chemical Peristol (sp. I have have no idea of the spelling!!!) was a wax based treatment for all of this material (German) and these smocks have been washed fairly hard.

The elastic...who knows? Should 1938 or 42 made CZ elastic look just like German elastic? Why?

The made up for the CZ army theory is very interesting and seems very very doubtful to me. There are a lot of reasons that armies like to standardize camo patterns...the main one being is that they don't killed by thier own soldiers or thier allies!! With all the things attributed to the post war CZ army because people do not want to say that they may be in fact WWII German is staggering....The CZ Army of the 1950s must have had the largest research and supply budget in the history of warfare given the dozens of variations in clothinfg creditied to them and the thousands of wood pegged leftover unworn boots pairs attribued to them!!

You also mention that the fabric used in these was "unlike any produced in WWII" how would you or anyone else possibly know? When I have examined this fabric under a scope it appears to be a very standard type of weave and made to a not extemely high finished state...in other words a very utilitarian type of fabric.

[Fritz]

11 pages now and no real progress. I really think we should all give it a little while to think it over and start a new discussion in case some sort of real "proof" appears...one way or another. Right now this thread looks a bit like a trench warfare with no real changes on both sides although quite some time went by since its beginning.

Cheers

Fritz

[phild]

11 pages now and no real progress. I really think we should all give it a little while to think it over and start a new discussion in case some sort of real "proof" appears...one way or another. Right now this thread looks a bit like a trench warfare with no real changes on both sides although quite some time went by since its beginning.

Cheers

Fritz

Fritz. Good idea and thanks for saving me from my own version of pilots ground fixation! You have to admit that the thread has been a "crowd pleaser" in terms of number of views.

I go now and make war no more...until another thread on these is raised or hard evidence either way is introduced. Thanks for indulging me.

[pete]

.

This aint gonna move forwards or backwards until we get a lab involved or meet someone with new historical or production info that surpasses any "current origin speculation" IMO.

If Palmenmuster gets the lab test going i will be interested in what they find given its done with correct samples. If the type of dye is somthing that 100% wasnt available until certain periods (like post war- and that is pretty accurate due to timelines for technology of dyes) then we shall see No matter how many smocks someone owns or examined or how important the unsubstanciated speculation story for origin. I think there may be a bit of ego at work here due to a lack of info on provenenace at present and we can only rely on what we have each seen and argue each other blind. When you have moloecular structure printouts and accepted period "known original" examples and consistancies to point to if its not a match will be the closest we will ever get without other hard evidence IMO.



Best,

Pete

[Lorenz]

Pete,
If the experiece, handling and own original items it'isnt important to give opinion on items well knowed, I dont understand why you post always pieces for opinions, save us, you can take them and do a moloecular structure exam, after you have all answers that you need on caps, tunics, smocks etc.
How the existence of this forum prove the personal knowledge and experience of the collectors involved it's very important and how you can have knowledge? Handling, axaminating and own original items....very easy and logical I think, for this reason all people can post something and have fast replay, and delete pictures, this seams the new fashion of the forum... .
Phild,
here we speacking about cotton duck, used to the manufacture of the pink smocks not HBT, this is an other Story.
The thickness of the cotton it'isnt important, you can buy today a cloth made yesterday for the same thickness, they are almost standard for the cotton cloths, what it's important are the components, becouse it was a mixed, how you told, and the quantity of the components are little changed during the war, with the fortune or misfortune of the Germany, like all at the time.
Regarding the czech provenance, in Italy in the '80 arrived from czech noumerous of this smocks, with green stamp of the Czech film studio, but not the well knowed "Statni Film" stamps that you can found in real original items, used postwar to made Film.
In general opinion, this stamps were considerated fakes stamps and the collectors deleted and cleaned this stamps on the smocks.
A friend of mine have still one of this smock with the stamp, when I will have the possibilty to get it I will post a picture.
Why put fake stamp on some smocks? maybe to legitimate like original some fake pieces?

Fritz,
I think that all is culture and 11 Pag, helping the collectors to form an opinion on the thing discussed, positive or negative that can be.....and Now,
I'm agree with you, better leave, I'm just little bored and this thread, always someone hope in the impossible......

Lorenz

This aint gonna move forwards or backwards until we get a lab involved or meet someone with new historical or production info that surpasses any "current origin speculation" IMO.

If Palmenmuster gets the lab test going i will be interested in what they find given its done with correct samples. If the type of dye is somthing that 100% wasnt available until certain periods (like post war- and that is pretty accurate due to timelines for technology of dyes) then we shall see No matter how many smocks someone owns or examined or how important the unsubstanciated speculation story for origin. I think there may be a bit of ego at work here due to a lack of info on provenenace at present and we can only rely on what we have each seen and argue each other blind. When you have moloecular structure printouts and accepted period "known original" examples and consistancies to point to if its not a match will be the closest we will ever get without other hard evidence IMO.



Best,

Pete

[pete]

.

Lorenzo,

You are misunderstanding me, this is a very unique item here we are talking about. First off again, I AM skeptical of these smocks but I am interested now in the level (lab) which has not be studied before. There are two types of skeptics, skeptics and pseudo skeptics who are those who already dont believe it from the start but appear skeptical. I have to say that from the hands on like you described previous, previous private conversations on these pink smocks you have turned me into a pseudo skeptic but still there is a part of me that still wants to know more EXACTLY when these were made to the year if possible. Carbon dating is out of the question but dyes may have somthing.

Current info:

A. Question: What date were they made?

B. Process:

1) Inspections based on current knowns: Smocks dont fit the norm features of all other examples although some features are arguable (and maybe a really well done copy),

2) Other info based on unknowns: No concrete fact, no photos, no witness, only rumours as to their origin, rumours as to time of production, rumours as to time of insertion to a market etc.

C. Result: Not 100% known. Nobody can pinpoint a date of manufacture, alot of controversy.

I am interested in only science results now. So if not by lab tests how else can we put ANY accurate period to these smocks? They could be from ww2, 1958, 1968 or 1970....who knows?Its going to by default have to go deeper then physical examinations at this point to gain new info that nobody to date has searched for. Personally I am not only interested in if they are ww2 period, i would just like to know WHATEVER period theyre from now! I would be happy for a lab to say this dye could have only been around from 1975 onwards for example.....that is something we can obtain with the proper chemical testing and there should be a clear definition in wartime dyes and post war dyes due to no shortages, advancing technology, additives etc, and all that should show up like a shining lighthouse to a trained technician.

This is going to have to go 100% lab science now to get the answers to those levels we as humans cant do on our own. If we can chemically isolate the compound and point to the timeline of dye technology only then can we settle it IMO......well at least to finally satisfy everybody with somthing we can point at more accurate then incomplete info we have at present. Mind you hands on says alo like i agree but everyone posting here is not happy with that as we see! Again I dont believe in them myself at present.

Example: Under lab test this pink smock has XXXXX type of dye or parts therof. This dye didnt come out until 1970 and wasnt on the market until 1975. Answer: settled. At Minimum 1970-75 made.



Pete

[Lorenz]

Pete,
I know very well this type of exams, I have a friend of mine that do this for me when there are some "serious" doubts.
Serious means for me that the cloths involved and other factors compared with original well know exemples are the same.
For exemple there are some early plan tree patterns, at the time of the experimentation of the camo patterns, used to do smocks, later '30 and early 40 that after the production was suspended. We can found some exemples in pictures of the War time (also Beaver Book) but not original exemples survived in collections, or the contrary, original exemples but not pictures (Beaver, first book)
While the numerated plan tree like 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 were used for almost all war with their evolution, some early patterns, we never know why, stopped soon their story.
For exemple I have a transitional SS M38/m40 smock (frontal reiforce, without elasticized neck)in a early handscreening unknow plan tree pattern with some cloth details, like bord of the neck, central wind flap, reinforce of the brest overture, covers of the waistband , flap pocket and the half side of the sleeves in "variegated " variant, the variegated variant is documented on pictures of the war time and also with an original exemple on the Beaver book (serie of 3 books) .
In the Beaver book this smock is called "variegated", but in a piece of this pattern on my M40 smock it's printed the number 1, this means that the "variegated" could be and evolution between the early plan tree number 1 and the palm pattern? how know.
Just some time agò a US collector asked me to sell this smock that he is in posession of two pictures of the wartime that show this camo smock in use.
This smock is worn and original IMO, compared with numerous other original exemples, all well documentated on books, for now I dont still saw the pictures, in this case IMO i's a piece that deserve this type of exams.
Normally this type of exams for people without connections are expensive, the pink smock IMO dont exceed the first hand examination......
But Naturally we will see the results
Lorenz

Lorenzo,

You are misunderstanding me, this is a very unique item here we are talking about. First off again, I AM skeptical of these smocks but I am interested now in the level (lab) which has not be studied before. There are two types of skeptics, skeptics and pseudo skeptics who are those who already dont believe it from the start but appear skeptical. I have to say that from the hands on like you described previous, previous private conversations on these pink smocks you have turned me into a pseudo skeptic but still there is a part of me that still wants to know more EXACTLY when these were made to the year if possible. Carbon dating is out of the question but dyes may have somthing.

Current info:

A. Question: What date were they made?

B. Process:

1) Inspections based on current knowns: Smocks dont fit the norm features of all other examples although some features are arguable (and maybe a really well done copy),

2) Other info based on unknowns: No concrete fact, no photos, no witness, only rumours as to their origin, rumours as to time of production, rumours as to time of insertion to a market etc.

C. Result: Not 100% known. Nobody can pinpoint a date of manufacture, alot of controversy.

I am interested in only science results now. So if not by lab tests how else can we put ANY accurate period to these smocks? They could be from ww2, 1958, 1968 or 1970....who knows?Its going to by default have to go deeper then physical examinations at this point to gain new info that nobody to date has searched for. Personally I am not only interested in if they are ww2 period, i would just like to know WHATEVER period theyre from now! I would be happy for a lab to say this dye could have only been around from 1975 onwards for example.....that is something we can obtain with the proper chemical testing and there should be a clear definition in wartime dyes and post war dyes due to no shortages, advancing technology, additives etc, and all that should show up like a shining lighthouse to a trained technician.

This is going to have to go 100% lab science now to get the answers to those levels we as humans cant do on our own. If we can chemically isolate the compound and point to the timeline of dye technology only then can we settle it IMO......well at least to finally satisfy everybody with somthing we can point at more accurate then incomplete info we have at present. Mind you hands on says alo like i agree but everyone posting here is not happy with that as we see! Again I dont believe in them myself at present.

Example: Under lab test this pink smock has XXXXX type of dye or parts therof. This dye didnt come out until 1970 and wasnt on the market until 1975. Answer: settled. At Minimum 1970-75 made.



Pete

[pete]

.

Yes my freind, i think one member, palmenmuster may have these connections

We shall see. I had the feeling I am not the only person who has thought of investigating originality that way, and with these smocks because of the controversy, its only normal. Eitherway I am only interested in the time period they were made now, because i dont think it was ww2 they were made but we shall see. Even if its nailed down as 1970s dye that will be end of story and we can EFFECTIVLY put the pink smocks to bed, and keep people from getting ripped off. Sorry to people who at that point may loose money if it turns out that way but i think the question deserves the answer.

But, if it is dye which is in line with war time samples.....what then? I think enquiring minds wanna know.....


Best,

Pete

[foamspoon]

I found this on atthefront.com a reenactor site...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=0% border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>

Reproduction Smocks commonly sold as "original."

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

European made Oak A Smocks:
These smocks are distinguished by a distinctly brick-red brown color and gray HBT pocket material. These are offered 90% of the time as original at militaria shows everywhere. The dealers will squall to high hell that their grand Daddy brought it back, but they're fake. How do we know they are fake?
1. Numerous re-enactors bought them in Germany in the early 1980's when I was a teenager, and they all paid about $150 for them. Their origin is uncertain. Some claim them to be from Czech film stocks, others just a good German repro.
2. Despite dozens of smocks, at least one at nearly every militaria show in the nation, no zelts have ever surfaced in the same peculiar red brown shade. The fabric is good quality, but it is not water proof, and you can see through it.
3. They usually sell for $800 to $1,000. Genuine Oak smocks start at $3,000.

</TD><TD>

Irish Smocks:
Also sold at militaria shows nationwide. Oak A variants also exist.
From our understanding, the fabric was printed in Ireland in the 1990's, for a German dealer named Brohl, who ended up dead. The fabric was sold to a number of vendors who then had different garments made from it. The 1st SS in England (2nd Battlegroup) wears lots of this stuff. Colors and material are excellent, perhaps the best of all repros. But....
1. The overprint is roller printed, not hand. It repeats every 18 inches, and there are no numbers making there no mistake that they are fakes.
2. Northridge International sold alot of these in 1997 (as repros) and now several dealers on and offline, offer them graciously as 100% original, found in Russian warehouse. Sure, and the pope is a direct decendant of Shaka Khan.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[pete]

.

Sorry i could not resist from your signature:

"The Pink smocks are coming"!!!

http://www.vikingkittens.com/




Pete