Ss Smock Opinion

[Soldat de Fer]

Hello
There is a story revolving around these smocks . Made by a mill in Ireland for some European customers , either in the late 70's or 80's . It was mentioned somewhere in great details , and I just can not remember where .
Regards
P-Y

[pete]

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You can find similiar colours (at the least the way my eyes work) on known original items but none match the pink smock in colour or material type.

Here IMO is an example of a similarity, not a match, from josefs helmet cover post.



Best,

Pete

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=277365

[pete]

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[pete]

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[Fritz]

Hello
There is a story revolving around these smocks . Made by a mill in Ireland for some European customers , either in the late 70's or 80's . It was mentioned somewhere in great details , and I just can not remember where .
Regards
P-Y

The storry is true but it was another smock.

Cheers


Fritz

[Fritz]

You can find similiar colours (at the least the way my eyes work) on known original items but none match the pink smock in colour or material type.

Here IMO is an example of a similarity, not a match, from josefs helmet cover post.



Best,

Pete

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=277365

After all what we are looking at here are brown and green tones so naturally there are similtries but IMO the tones on Sepp's item are still quite different.

Cheers

Fritz

[pete]

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I would agree with that sir!



Pete

[Palmenmuster]

I have just arrived back home after several weeks out of town and see the "Pink Smock" tread is still alive. I respect and understand Lorenz and Philds arguments and I hope to bring some new informations in the debate. I just checked my 2 smocks regards the watertest - and my smocks perform like other original Zelts, they are not 100% cotton. Hopefully, I have time in the weekend to do som other comparisons, I will measure the thickness of the cloth and compare with fake cloth from different items I can compare with. I have an expensive micrometer wich should measure differences in the cloth thickness. Maybe I can come up with more information to clarify the question.

Best regards, Tom

[Palmenmuster]

I have used a couple of hours today and measured different smocks and Zelts, I have also measured a repro made in the 90s and a M-44 dot cotton jacket.

Here are the measured thickness of the different cloths:
Oak Zelt, well used 0,38 millimeter thickness.
M-40 Smock, good condition 0,39 millimeter thickness.
M-40 Smock, well used 0,39 millimeter thickness.
M-40 Smock, almost like new 0,39 millimeter thickness.
M-42 Smock, almost like new 0,40 millimeter thickness.
M-42 Smock, good condition 0,40 millimeter thickness.
M-42 "Pink"Smock, good cond 0.40 millimeter thickness.
M-42 "Pink"Smock, bad cond 0,40 millimeter thickness.

M-44 dot jacket cotton, well used 0,63 millimeter thickness.
Repro cap from "1944" 0,36 millimeter thickness.

All in all, to me it seems like the original Zelt, M-40 and M-42 Smocks are exactly the same thickness as the "Pink" Smocks, the M-44 dot jacket in cotton are heavily used and even then, much thicker than the "Pink" smocks. The repro cap from "1944 Militaria" is as shown, much thinner than the other cloth.

This is no proof, but another "fact" that in my opinion show they are genuine.

Best regards, Tom

[phild]

[quote=Palmenmuster;2525126]I have used a couple of hours today and measured different smocks and Zelts, I have also measured a repro made in the 90s and a M-44 dot cotton jacket."

My hat is off to you for applying more science rather than simply emotion and hersey.

I started looking at the fabric under a scope back in 1981 trying to compare it to other German used duck of the period, not just SS smocks. In those days I only had access to a few dozen different examples of period items made from this general purpose of fabric and not thousands of examples, nor do I today. I certainly found differences between this "pink" smock fabric and the other fabric that I examined and I also found many differences between the 100% German item's fabric (with each other in many cases) as well.

I felt that this Pink smock fabric was old and that was in 1981. I feel very confortable in saying that it would be near impossible for any fabric like this that was made up in a non German mill (whether in 1938 or 1943) to be identical to a fabric from one of the common standard German smock fabric mills.

I believe this:

1. the only way to prove that these are post war repro's is to find the people who made them or had them made and get thier story OR to find something in the dyes or materials of these smocks that is clearly could not have been used prior to 1945 as it did not exist or was not available.
2. The only way to prove them as originals is to find a clear period photo of one being worn or to find one that is unquestionable remaining in the hands of a vet or other institution who has had it since the war.

[pete]

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I have said that before in respect to the carbon dating. I know people who run textile labs as wekk who can break down materials with structure. If we had snips from pink smocks and some snips from other smocks we might even be able to do that and see what consistancies and non consistancies are.

Pete

[willy]

Has anyone done a blacklight test on these smocks? I've been reading these threads and I don't recall anyone doing a blacklight test.

[Trevor Elliott]

The 2 "pink" Smocks which I have do not glow under black light.

[pete]

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If we had a test sample of a smock with other smock snipplets and had the chemicals identified on the molocular level etc. we may be able to have a lab flag the constants of chemcials in dyes on known smocks, period dye and hold it up against the pink smock dyes to see if there is a match or not with things used in the manufacture system like dyes. For example the dyes used if it is a post war smock will probably be dyes consistant with other items of clothing from the post war period.

Anybody able to provide me with samples or have lab connections themselves? I can have that done possibly.



Best,

Pete



Pete

[Palmenmuster]

Pete, that is a good idea. I will contact the national Crime Scene Laboratrie and see if I can get them to do the analysis.

Best regards, Tom