Collar Tab Opinions Please

[C. Betz]

Hello To All
Can I get some opinions on this 1934-1940 SS Staff or SD Collar tab please? All opinions, pro or con, are welcome and appreciated.

Under black light, the damaged aluminum piping (from top center to the three strands to the right and down three strands on the right from the right hand upper corner), emit a flat orange/tan coloration, but it is not a glow. The rest of the piping does not glow. The rzm tag emits the same light orange color under UV but not the bright white fluorecence of modern paper.

Thanks to all in advance.

Charles Betz

[C. Betz]

Reverse Of Tab

Reverse Of Tab

[C. Betz]

Exposed Backing Detail

Exposed Backing Detail

[Felix]

It looks to me like someone has tried to construct this tab post war by adding a silver/black border to an original blank rank tab. The border is too sloppy to be made during the war. To make it even hotter he added an orginal rzm tab. (though with wrong letter of complexity for a blank rank tab)

/Felix

[C. Betz]

SS Tab

Felix,
Interesting posting. Can you back up any of your speculation with sound scientific reasoning? I, and I'm sure others, would be most interested if you could give us the date, time, and location of where you were when observing all of these alterations. Please provide us with this information.

Your speculations are within the realm of possibility but then so is the premise of the moon landings being staged in a sound stage in Hollywood or Hanger 18.

I find that your posting concerning this collar tab to be spurious at best and without foundation. Your's fails even a modicum of logical dissertation .

As stated in my original thread; all opinions, pro or con, are welcome. I would appreciate a reasoned discourse if that opinion is a negative.

Additionally, this is not a rank tab.

Charles Betz

[Felix]

Felix,
Interesting posting. Can you back up any of your speculation with sound scientific reasoning? I, and I'm sure others, would be most interested if you could give us the date, time, and location of where you were when obseving all of these alterations. Please provide us with this information.

Your speculations are within the realm of possibility but then so is the premise of the moon landings being staged in a sound stage in Hollywood or Hanger 18.

I find that your posting concerning this collar tab to be spurious at best and without foundation. Your's fails even a modicum of logical dissertation .

As stated in my original thread; all opinions, pro or con, are welcome. I would appreciate a reasoned discourse if that opinion is a negative.

Charles Betz

I just tried to let you know what I think. Im sorry I did push a button somewhere and I will say no more on this subject due to your negative attitudes.

Cheers,
Felix

[Gary Wood]

It looks to me like someone has tried to construct this tab post war by adding a silver/black border to an original blank rank tab. The border is too sloppy to be made during the war. To make it even hotter he added an orginal rzm tab. (though with wrong letter of complexity for a blank rank tab)

/Felix

Felix,
actually Its not a rank tab , the label would be from the period 1938-40 and is correct for a tab of this type (enlisted/Nco), the piping does look a little sloppy but that could ne for many reasons.


Charles,
do you mean the moon landings were real
cheers
gary

[Felix]

Gary; I allways respect your knowledge and opinions. To be quite correct no one can tell if this is a rank tab or not, unless you cut it off the uniform yourself. Might be SD or rank tab.

IMO an A letter code rzm tag is more correct but sure, I have seen a blank with letter B now when I do more reserach. But very rarely blanks are tagged any way.

Still not a tab for my collection by reasons I have allready given. But its my opinion. Any one can feel what they like.

Regards,
Felix

[Arran]

Felix, can't you tell which side the tab is for (unit or rank) by looking at the shape? Other than senior ranks, I don't think the SS ever displayed rank on the wearers' right collar tab...

[Felix]

Felix, can't you tell which side the tab is for (unit or rank) by looking at the shape? Other than senior ranks, I don't think the SS ever displayed rank on the wearers' right collar tab...

No, and you cant either.

[Arran]

But Felix, the tab worn on the wearer's left collar will be a mirror image of that worn on the right...if you were to fit the tab from the right side on to the left, you would have to put it bukram side out to fit the collar properly...it seems so obvious to me...

[Ian Hulley]

What IS obvious (in MY opinion) is that this is an original blank right-sided tab,with early piping in a condition which is somewhat inconsistant to the rest of the tab. The RZM label is original and correct for a piped blank tab,reflecting the jobs of cutting,folding and glueing the tab material around the buckram and then also attaching the piping. It dates (as Gary says) from Spring '38 to ~'40,i.e. the paper labels started in Spring '38,the serial number's around that date (?) and the silver/black/silver piping was discontinued in 1940.

Anything much else is speculative. However,it doesn't help throwing the toy's out of the pram though when someone replies to your thread with something you don't want to hear ! .... and people wonder why threads go un-answered.

Cheers,Ian.

[John T]

I think the wear on the whole tab is consistent (IE braid and tab body), but I collect Waffen-SS tabs so I can not say if the material is correct on the tab, although it looks okay and age appropriate with regard to wear patterns.

@ Felix...I think the others are saying that based on the shape of the tab it can not be the one we would see on the rank side.

[Felix]

Dear Arran and others!

To think that the placing of the rzm tag is the sole indicator for the placement of symmetrical insignias is not correct IMO.
The SD were considered a sub-organisation of the Allgemeine SS and they utilised the same insignias until early 1942. Its therefore logical to presume they didn’t order special collar tabs specifically made for SD, but rather used what was already in production for the Allgemeine SS. Many officer rank collar tabs were also delivered as blanks from the manufacturing industry to the tailors or cloth factories where the pips where added from what was ordered.

There are many examples of asymmetrical insignias where the rzm label is placed up side down, especially concerning some cuff titles, but also can be seen on other insignias. This doesn’t mean the tailors strictly followed the placing of the rzm tab as a guideline when attaching the insignias to the uniforms, right? I think that the rzm tab was just glued to the reverse to show that it was a proper product of the system in those days. For symmetrical insignias its especially tricky to tell if the rzm tab is up side down or not. But of course in the collectors riker mounts they are all placed readable.

For asymmetrical insignias its much easier to place the rzm tab right at the factory. But as I wrote above it was not followed strictly. I don’t think they could know that specifically these collar tabs were for SD so lets place the rzm tab readable. This is just how we collectors like to think when we try to prove a collar tab must be for SD if the rzm tab is readable. And I do not think that when the collar tabs arrived to the tailors they followed this in all cases when they attached the insignias. They attached them like what was best and most suitable for them. Who would ever read the rzm tag any way after being sewn? Greedy future collectors? Well, Im sorry to say the tailors did a bad job helping us out. Any one stripped collar tabs of tunics to confirm they were always readable?

There can also be seen rank patches with pips that originally had a rzm tag. Still, in most cases rank tabs would not be fitted with an rzm tag at all. As well as there are many SS tabs without any rzm tab. IMO a B letter tag is high for a blank tab. But can also be seen on originals. So were A tags for blank collar tabs. B tags are very common for enlisted embroidered SS rune tabs. C tags were most common on SS offcer rune tabs. Its not logical with a B tag for blank. But we also know that the letter codes were not strictly enforced.

All in all, you can not prove this collar patch to be an original SD unless you stripped it of the tunic yourself.
And I stand by my above early conclusions. But its my opinion and not necessarily the truth. Its up to any one to believe what they like.

Enough on this topic from my side!

Happy collecting everybody!

/Felix

[prorege1]

The tab looks okay to me from the picture. How is the glue on the reverse of the RZM paper label - stiff/cracking when bending?