We are losing Dr. Abenheim and Bob Coleman - please speak up!

[Thälmannpionier]

Sorry to see knowledgable folks leave, but that is their choice.
I don't remember seeing anyone treat them badly in that highly read thread, or say anything personal at all. One particular person expressed a negative opinion on that visor and backed it up with photgraphic evidence. He is also quite knowledgable in this field. There were no insults, or name calling or anything. There were many questions leveled about the cap being sold by a dealer as an expensive rare piece, but obviously those will all go unanswered.
So in the end we know nothing about the cap, and isn't that all we really wanted to know.

Cannot agree more
There is very serious money involved in this hobby and one man tried to back up his points of his obsvervations on the cap in question...and at the end, his observations were not proofed wrong...and the cap was removed from the website!It more looked for me like: How can he dare to question this Cap and doesn't give up!

I had a few emails with Dr. Abenheim and very much enjoyed his emails and Photos...but I cannot see the point,why he would leave the forum
no one was attacking his knowledge..even a Dr. can be wrong sometimes(or maybe not)

Why not say,OK,thats your opinion and I have mine!Lets move on!
..my 2 cents

[Don D.]

I've followed all these threads and it amazes me that the issue of originality is brushed aside as unimportant. The originality or lack thereof was the key issue of the threads, not the personalities involved. I don't like to see anyone get drug through the mud but I've also learned lately, and much to my chagrin and loss, that even the experts make mistakes. The real question is whether and how they own up to them. Whether you like it or not, Dave questioned what he found to be a dubious item in an attempt to save some poor schmuck some big bucks. Said item has since disappeared without a final resolution and many of the people involved have taken the 5th. When that happens it leaves people speculating. What happened to the rule: An item must stand on it's own merit? Isn't the item what this should all be about?
The other part of these threads that has amazed me is the indignation displayed by some that laypersons would dare to express thier opinions. We aren't worthy (picture Wayne and Garth here). The last I saw every member of this forum is allowed to express their opinion here. They can also expect others to do the same as I'm sure they will when they read this.

Bottomline: It is about the item, real or not? The world wonders.

[Dennis J]

We are losing

Well said Don.
I know I learned from that thread.

Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

[PZIV]

Please stay, we all need your wisdom.

[Antiquefrog]

Again, thanks for all of your input. This a highly-charged mine field. We are discussing many issues here, but not really the original cap, and not really the electricity of the exchanges. All replies have been offered in good faith, I am sure. The resignation of Dr. Abenheim and Bob Coleman has less to do with this specific thread than, as another member has suggested, the changing tide of the collecting field today. These older, vastly experienced, members simply have little reason to participate in discussions that wander off into minutiae that cannot be comfirmed without examination and, at times, have suggested collusion on their part in resale. No doubt they are offended! The moderators have given wide swath to these discussions, perhaps for the best, but the inevitable result of back-and-forth mudslinging, and in some cases nonsense, has been the resignation of senior members who simply do not need this sort of baloney. I concur, and remember, their resignation affects not just this simple thread, but the status of every item proposed from this time forward.

[dhunter93]

I've followed all these threads and it amazes me that the issue of originality is brushed aside as unimportant. The originality or lack thereof was the key issue of the threads, not the personalities involved. I don't like to see anyone get drug through the mud but I've also learned lately, and much to my chagrin and loss, that even the experts make mistakes. The real question is whether and how they own up to them. Whether you like it or not, Dave questioned what he found to be a dubious item in an attempt to save some poor schmuck some big bucks. Said item has since disappeared without a final resolution and many of the people involved have taken the 5th. When that happens it leaves people speculating. What happened to the rule: An item must stand on it's own merit? Isn't the item what this should all be about?
The other part of these threads that has amazed me is the indignation displayed by some that laypersons would dare to express thier opinions. We aren't worthy (picture Wayne and Garth here). The last I saw every member of this forum is allowed to express their opinion here. They can also expect others to do the same as I'm sure they will when they read this.

Bottomline: It is about the item, real or not? The world wonders.

You are right on! Some in this thread either did not read the original post or they are trying to change the subject. THE WHOLE ISSUE IS (AND WAS) OVER THE $15,000 VISOR CAP! As soon as the evidence mounted that the cap was fake and Donald was supposedly the owner, as well as the "third party" verifier the thread was pulled. I think the thread should have stayed up, pulling it only makes the whole site look bad. It is sad that feelings were hurt but lets all be real, this was all about saving some poor collector from getting screwed !!!!!!

[DaveJ]

I have been collecting for 25 plus years and wished I could have met more of the senior collectors than I have.
I met several and have REALLY enjoyed the interaction I have been able to have with them. When you can deal with a person, look them in the eye and know you are dealing Man to Man, it is something you feel in your gut.
Honor between MEN, something that is missing in the electronic world, makes it easy for some person ( same letters ) to come in and talk s##t.
Hey it is a free world and if you are not concerned about the out come do what ever.
But, I will say this, It is a small hobby, and I do not know every one in it, But I will bet, the guys I know knowand the guys they know, and the other guys I want know.
Sure , what is Dave(me) saying, Guys, do not leave, If some people, and I will use that word losely talk s##t, ingnore them. I learn everyday from this medium, and it is the guys like you, with 20 plus more years then me, that let the TRUE collectors learn something..
If you want to fade back into the PM world and help the guys that want to learn, PLEASE do not disseapear.
This forum has tought me a lot, and I been shown a lot from guys that I am talking about, either are or know.
I will agian ask the same thing the other members ask. PLEASE stay with us, if you do not want to be quoted, share your skill on the one to one level.
I have really hated learning that items in my collection were fake, but the knowledge of the senior guys, will prevent some other collecters from making my mistake .
OKAY enough said, THANKS to the guys that have shared their experiance, to the guys that would belittle them, to bad, that stuff is FAKE, will be FAKE, and you will find that out soon enough.

You collectors that are willing to share your knowledge, and I mean old timers who know what you are talking about, and maybe are fed up with this, THANKS.
Off the soap box, and off to another beer,
Dave,
With too much crap(in the junk box), but the real stuff needs no justification.....

[Bob Coleman]

Gentlemen-
I have been debating as to adding any further fuel to the fire. However, I have decided to wade in once more for the very last time. I saw no valid proof offered that the hat was fake except for the word of one individual-who could be wrong. He never handled it and is making a judgement, for only whatever reasons, from images, not a hand on inspection I have since been contacted by four knowledgable SS and headgear collectors, who like myself, had handled the hat and felt it to be a late variant and totally period. I have mentioned in other posts that I know something about this hat that others do not know. this is it:
I personally purchased this hat from a veteran along with other souvenirs back in either 1963 or 1964. At the time, I was considered to have one of the largest & most knowledgable collectors of 3rd Reich headgear until the collection was sold in 1972. I am quite familiar with all of the fake hats available at the time. This was not one of them. I even had a period photo of the vet wearing the hat while in Germany. The photo has evidently been lost over the years but it went with the hat at the time the collection was sold.
Now, either I am a liar or Mr. Kane, who never handled the hat, was wrong.
By the way, it is my understanding that even after the intitial thread, a buyer came forward and the hat was sold. I hope that puts an end to this uneducated & sad discussion.

[Don D.]

I guess that settles it. Too bad as I would have liked to see better shots of it so I could learn. Maybe the new owner will post it here for us to enjoy.

[quankle]

discussion

Just a question. If all of the information about this hat had been put on the table at the beginning, wouldn't the discussion have taken an entirely different direction?

[Bob Coleman]

Give Some One Enough Rope And-------

Just a question. If all of the information about this hat had been put on the table at the beginning, wouldn't the discussion have taken an entirely different direction?

NO. AT THE TIME I BECAME INVOLVED, THE THREAD HAD ALREADY TURNED IN TO A WITCH HUNT. TOO BAD THE THREAD IS GONE. MUCH TRUTH WAS LOST IN THE MUD SLINGING. THE ORIGINAL TITLE OF THE THREAD REVEALED, IMO, THE AUTHOR'S INTENT MORE TO DISPARAGE THE PARTIES INVOLVED THAN THE ITEM ITSELF. IT IS AMAZING TO ME HOW MANY PEOPLE PRONOUNCED THE PIECE BAD BASED SOLELY ON THE OPINION OF ONE PERSON. JUST LOOK AT SOME OF THE POSTS IN THIS THREAD.THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS SEEMS ALWAYS TO GAIN MORE ATTENTION THAN THE QUEST FOR TRUTH. AS I HAVE SAID SO MANY TIMES, IMAGES ARE NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A HANDS ON EXAMINATION.

[quankle]

***

[Bob Coleman]

[quote=quankle]I am glad you're back!!![/quote
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. HOWEVER, I AM NOT. I JUST WANTED THE TRUTH TO EMERGE ON THIS ISSUE. THE SICKENING ATTACKS BY SOME MEMBERS AGAINST OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ASSOCIATION WITHOUT ANY REBUKE OR PENALTY FROMTHE OWNER OF THIS SITE LEFT ME WITH A VERY BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH. THIS IS A HOBBY AND A SOURCE OF RELAXATION AND MANY YEARS OF ENJOYMENT FOR ME STUDYING AND FURTHERING MY KNOWLEDGE. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SPIRITIED DEBATE. I DO HAVE A GREAT PROBLEM WITH THE USE OF THIS VENUE FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST PEOPLE I GREATLY REPECT.

[Chris Liontas]

Gentlemen-
I hope that puts an end to this uneducated & sad discussion.

BALONY!!!

A spirited debate this may have been--direct and to the point..maybe--off kilter this may have been--drank too much, I may have...but undeducated, balony! There were photos sent to the seller, and to any other that was intereseted. There was a debate on the hats itself, thanks to guys like BenVK who tried with thier best efforts to keep topics on tract. There were points against the hat, and points for the hat made against specific photographs of reproduction headgear. There WAS an attempt at good, educated discussion, which was blown off by attacks on character from BOTH parties.

Was the debate too forward--yes..probably

Was the debate uneducated---NO! There I will disagree. We have collectors like Ben, who tried with all his might to get to a rational discussion of this hat. Dave provided photographs, comparrisons, and discussions were all made around all the attacks. And for that, hopefully younger collectors were able to learn many lessions..IE:one mans opionon (for or against) does not a 100% decision make.....whatever.

I've nothing but respect for the collecting :old guard". Without the guys who have been in this hobby for 25+ years, we would not have a hobby. But when an item is discussed, it must rise and fall on its own merits. People rushed into this thread to defend or condem PEOPLE INVOLVED, not the hat itself.....

I wish there were more collectors like Ben, who tried to keep these topics on tract...and tried to educate younger collectors....who could admit a mistake...or whoop it up at a rarer than rare find (that TK hat of yours is the envy of my sad collection)...rather than degrade a thread into a personal attack.

I hope everyone will stay and contribute to the forum. A disenting oppinion in a fire of controversy is sometimes worth more than its weight in gold, sometimes not..but anything that makes people think through an issue is good...

[Felix]

I feel the dark forces has won a victory of great importance when we collectors, members of the bright side, cant be friends any more and fight for a common goal.

With knowledgeable collectors leaving the forum, which there is no need to - after a wild discussion, we are back to the pre era of forums and the dark side will be able to fool us many times more.

Please, everybody, reconsider what is the initial intent of this forum!

/Felix