ss skull

[markie]

hi guys, could i have some help with this skull please, is it a or a ,
thanks in advance, mark.

[markie]

back

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Mark, I have one of these.

I showed it on the forum some years ago now and at the time no one could show another like it.

Things in it's favor are it was bought almost 30 years ago and it is made from zinc with a silver wash finish which has now almost dissappeared.

Minus points are edge prongs like this are used on cheap fakes. At the time I showed mine previously all that were shown before were some nasty fakes.

I would be interested to learn more too.

Cheers, Ade.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Reverse.

Not too worried if it turns out to be bad as it only owes me a few £'s. Not like prices of SS cap insignia today

Cheers, Ade.

[bwanek1]

I have heard arguments that the integral pin style was never used on original SS insignia as it was on Heer insignia. However, I have never agreed with that argument. This TK has always seemed to me to be the one known exception to that rule. To my eyes, it looks nearly identical to the unmarked zinc Assmann skulls with the round pins like the one compared below. I believe the integral pin style to be original, representing the latest war efforts at economy of production. I will be interested to read other opinions.

Best,
Brad

[BenVK]

Hi Brad, I'm with you on this one. I have also heard of some original SS visors having 3 holes through the centre band but can offer no proof of that.

[markie]

thanks for your replys, are there not original panzer skulls with the same pin setup? best regards, mark.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Mark, you are correct, Heer Panzer collar tab skulls are made in this fashion.

But the exsistance of an SS cap skull made in this fashion during the period of the Third Reich is another matter Hopefully we might prove it one way or another in this thread.

Cheers, Ade.

[fusilier]

hi guys, could i have some help with this skull please, is it a or a ,
thanks in advance, mark.

Dear markie, could not resists in replying to you, now here is the good news i have seen various cap insignia with the edge prongs. army officer or non commissioned officer peaked cap eagle which is in my collection. also the jager badge that was worn on the side of the m43 field cap and also i have seen it on the panzer collar skulls. the skull which you have i whould say it is original because a lot of the late war badges that where made of zinc also had this silver wash which seems to wash off. so i whould say your badge is original. regards fusilier. sorry about slight spelling mistakes.

[fusilier]

Hi Mark, I have one of these.

I showed it on the forum some years ago now and at the time no one could show another like it.

Things in it's favor are it was bought almost 30 years ago and it is made from zinc with a silver wash finish which has now almost dissappeared.

Minus points are edge prongs like this are used on cheap fakes. At the time I showed mine previously all that were shown before were some nasty fakes.

I would be interested to learn more too.

Cheers, Ade.

Dear Adrian Stevenson, could not resist in replying to this also, i think that from the photograph of your skull i would say your one is original please find my other reply to this on this subject, regards fusilier.

[bwanek1]

Dear markie, could not resists in replying to you, now here is the good news i have seen various cap insignia with the edge prongs. army officer or non commissioned officer peaked cap eagle which is in my collection. also the jager badge that was worn on the side of the m43 field cap and also i have seen it on the panzer collar skulls. the skull which you have i whould say it is original because a lot of the late war badges that where made of zinc also had this silver wash which seems to wash off. so i whould say your badge is original. regards fusilier. sorry about slight spelling mistakes.

Fusilier,

Welcome to the forum (and the center of a long-standing debate among SS insignia collectors). The issue has always been that, since the use of edge prongs in mid to late-war insignia was common in the production of Heer and other insignia, including the examples you listed among others, the absence of any SS metal insignia of such construction, which is recognized as original, is conspicuous. However, insignia for the SS was produced under different rules, because, unlike the insignia produced for the Heer and other Wehrmacht branches, it was governed by the RZM, as well as special SS regulations. Hence, the prevailing argument has been that the RZM or SS had likely not allowed this cheaper method of production, used commonly elsewhere, to be used for the SS. Accordingly, the insignia you listed would be dismissed by some as an 'apples to oranges' comparison. As has been stated previously in this thread, many poor fake TKs have been made employing the edge prongs, fueling the argument that all similarly constructed TKs are fake. However, I still think this particular style of TK is original and debunks that old belief. We shall see what others think.

Best,
Brad

[fusilier]

Fusilier,

Welcome to the forum (and the center of a long-standing debate among SS insignia collectors). The issue has always been that, since the use of edge prongs in mid to late-war insignia was common in the production of Heer and other insignia, including the examples you listed among others, the absence of any SS metal insignia of such construction, which is recognized as original, is conspicuous. However, insignia for the SS was produced under different rules, because, unlike the insignia produced for the Heer and other Wehrmacht branches, it was governed by the RZM, as well as special SS regulations. Hence, the prevailing argument has been that the RZM or SS had likely not allowed this cheaper method of production, used commonly elsewhere, to be used for the SS. Accordingly, the insignia you listed would be dismissed by some as an 'apples to oranges' comparison. As has been stated previously in this thread, many poor fake TKs have been made employing the edge prongs, fueling the argument that all similarly constructed TKs are fake. However, I still think this particular style of TK is original and debunks that old belief. We shall see what others think.

Best,
Brad

Dear Brad, Thank you for your reply, i have seen various badges made in zinc for the late war period with RZM marks some of which are in my collection Hitler Youth, Political leaders peaked cap cockade, Political Leadrs peaked cap eagle also somewhere in this section of this website there is an example of ss peaked cap insignia in zinc hope this solves the agument, regards fusilier. there is proberly somewhere a silver wire version of the ss peaked cap insignia.

[fusilier]

Dear Brad, Thank you for your reply, i have seen various badges made in zinc for the late war period with RZM marks some of which are in my collection Hitler Youth, Political leaders peaked cap cockade, Political Leadrs peaked cap eagle also somewhere in this section of this website there is an example of ss peaked cap insignia in zinc hope this solves the agument, regards fusilier. there is proberly somewhere a silver wire version of the ss peaked cap insignia.

PS. see the posting for the ss peaked cap insignia in zinc posted by norge. regards fusilier.

[bwanek1]

Dear Brad, Thank you for your reply, i have seen various badges made in zinc for the late war period with RZM marks some of which are in my collection Hitler Youth, Political leaders peaked cap cockade, Political Leadrs peaked cap eagle also somewhere in this section of this website there is an example of ss peaked cap insignia in zinc hope this solves the agument, regards fusilier. there is proberly somewhere a silver wire version of the ss peaked cap insignia.

You misunderstand me. SS cap insignia made of zinc, with and without RZM marks, are quite common. There are well documented originals by nearly every known maker in zinc (including the one I posted for comparison in this very thread with the round pins). The issue is the prongs which are integral to the insignia. The discussion is about whether any original SS insignia ever were produced with the edge prongs, not whether they were made of zinc. SS insignia can be a completely different world from that of the Hitler Youth and other civil/political organizations. I caution you again from drawing conclusions about SS insignia based on what you know about these other areas.

[Donald Abenheim]

Feinzink

Feinzink as a Werkstoff existed well before the III. Reich. It can also be seen in many items in the Assmann catalog ca 1936 or so. I am sure my Texan colleague's hypothesis is sound. The RZM was also an agency for the allocation of raw materials, commodities that became the object of national concern well before the war even began, to say nothing of the setbacks on the fighting fronts. Thus, if the army used Zinc insignia, I am sure that the SS did as well. If anything, the SS had more trials with the access to materiel than did the army, in certain cases. Such questions as these are well served by reading the excellent literature on the economic enterprises of the SS, works that contain accounts of the bureaucratic struggle the SS faced within the finances of the party and later its role within the cosmos of the German war economy. I have never seen a zinc TK with the huge prongs I thought to be real, but such a statement is meaningless. Each month piles up never before seen items, which in this month include two extraordinary grey SS peaked caps, none of which I have seen in forty years of searching....