SS Hauptscharfuhrer tunic opinions.

[herrgeezer]

Opps! Sorry if I caused friction between collectors. I appreciate the insights on this tunic and I appreciate Bruce's willingness to pull an item from his listings. I have seen many nice pieces on his site and was hoping to work a deal on this piece, but as many of us do on this forum ... I wanted to ask for opinions from others on the item in question. Thank you Bruce for your consideration and thanks to others for their candor.

[Bobwirtz]

This is the reason that I made the comment on the other thread about the SS-Obergruppenfuhrer collar tabs that sources shouldn't be divulged on the forum. This started off as an appraisal of the artifact and ended up as a disagreement between two members about a totally different matter. Because of this we don't have inputs from many members who might have shed some interesting light on the tunic and/or insignia, but since the source was identified and the subsequent argument, many members abstained from comment.

Bob

[Mint Collector]

The SS were issued Heer tunics right up until the end of the war,M43's 44's etc. I don't think the SS-BW system could keep up on the demand for tunics.

I once saw a well worn SS-BW manufactured tunic that had removed Heer insignia and was never issued to the SS but rather to some Heer units.

If some of the insignia on this piece were proven to be bad (tabs and eagle) and evidence of removed Heer insignia then it was probably a Heer jacket. If not then you have to go with a hands on look and make your own decision as to when the insignia was applied,


Glenn

That gets us back to the point on this tunic that all insignia being right what is the detraction regarding incorrect rank? Field demotions/promotions occured all the time... I hate to see an argument over a past deal stigmatize this tunic if it is right...

[Mike C]

Without a hands on inspection, it will be impossible to tell - although I am suspicious of some insignia. This being said, the combination is suspect for the following reasons:

a. although Heer tunics were used by W-SS forces, any cursory examination of late-war photographs will suggest that this was comparatively rare - especially with a key W-SS regiment. So...consiider the odds;

b. the combination of cufftitle and waffenfarbe is bizarre - the proper waffenfarbe for Germania was infantry white (for ALL elements of the regiment). Now perhaps a very senior infantry NCO was re-trained and transferred into an artillery unit that was not authorized a cufftile and decided to keep his Germania insignia.... But consider the odds;

c. the Demjansk shield would almostly certainly have been won by a member of the 3d SS Division (Totenkopf) - who was transferred in Germania (an unusual transfer) and then sent off to the artillery. However consider the odds (the TK Division was down to less than 7000 personnel towards the end of the fighting in the pocket - and most were in support elements);

d. if I remember correctly (the pictures are gone), in addition, to the Shield the tunic bore the decorations of EKII and Ostmedaille - but no pocket badge loops or sign of of pinned badges (and this for a hauptsturmfuhrer).

I could go on - but the evidence, independant of a hands on inspection, is already heavily against this piece.

Mike

[Scott A. Hess]

That gets us back to the point on this tunic that all insignia being right what is the detraction regarding incorrect rank? Field demotions/promotions occured all the time... I hate to see an argument over a past deal stigmatize this tunic if it is right...

Glenn..here is my opinion regarding any piece ..not just this piece..where there is a mistake. I dont doubt for a moment that demotions occurred. I also recognize that there are tunics..badges..blades...any area of collecting where variations exist..but with tunics perhaps the amount of variations that crop up is increased exponentially with the oddities of construction, manufacturer..insignia. HOwever..with any such obvious deviation from the norm what one is doing is making excuses in my opinion for the piece in support of it being original. These excuses are always the ones which crop up and detract and impede the resale of a piece down the road. Thus...acquiring the piece you either have to be prepared to keep the piece as you are satisfied with it or as here convince another potential buyer that it is something that was an oversight or such..which obviously did occur. When one is talking of a piece close to 8000 dollars..those variations become scary, ie, the fact that it is an issue Heer tunic (I've seen period pictures of them used) only compiles to the oddity of the rank being wrong. Is there a missing rank hole on each side? Could be..and could account for the absence of the pip. Just something that I personally would not want to take the chance on, but thats just me. Could it be a demotion? Sure...caveat..would the SS really allow senior noncoms to walk around with non uniform rank?Doubtful..but could happen. Again..to many ??? question marks for me, but maybe not for another collector. Another oddity..was the Germania regiment of Das Reich involved in the fighting at Demjansk? I thought it was mainly Totenkopf soldiers who were mainly involved at this battle.

[Glenn McInnes]

I don't think a lot of pictures were being taken by the Germans late in the war hence the limited photographic evidence of things such as SS M43 caps with trap insignia etc..I think this is the reason for the flood of original M43 trapazoid caps for sale at the present time,no photographic evidence (which turns to paranoia) thus collectors dump them.

If there was a pip on the tab (the pictures are gone and I can't remember) it could have been removed or fallen off. Since the boards are slip on they could have been replaced. Insignia such as battle shields,EK2 ribbons, award loops are often added post war by collectors to "dress up" a tunic.

I am not saying that this jacket is 100% period sewn (I would look at the tabs and eagle) but I think it is impossible without seeing it in hand to make such a determination based only on a few pictures and even then it may be impossible to tell


Glenn

[Scott A. Hess]

I have no problem owning a tunic which is authentic that has been "dressed up" by the addition of ribbons...shields..even a cufftitle..as long as the piece is good..and the price for the overal ensamble reasonable..it can always be dressed back down again and restored to what one could guess to be an original state..but this is always just a guess. In 30 years of collecting I've owned in myopinion one jacket with an ostmedialle ribbon original to the piece.where I felt due to again..sun..time that it was a binafide real deal. That dosnt mean that thousands of original tunics dont have ic or ost medialle ribbons original to the piece..I've just only owned one..Less apparent are badge loops..which are not hard to replicate with original thread..its acommon sewing technique, nothing new or novel to it.
I agree with Glenn..photographic evidence.or lack thereof..is not always a bad thing..and late war less propoganda films were made proportionally although I saw a very good documentary that argued in the last year of the war many more films were made to boost morale even in the final months.
The problem with something which cuts greatly against photograhic evidence again is believability...its not for lack of this that dealers and collectors alike use the word "textbook" when it applies in selling a piece..if it meets the criteria..as many collectors wont collect something non textbook.