Beavers Book has a picture of Chritian Tychsens pre war service tunic from when he served in the SSVT Aufklarungs abteilung. The piping color on the boards is Golden yellow not copper brown. I now am convinced that unless you were actually there no one knows exactly what color was used for recon other than what is in the written ordinance. However Tychsen certainly and with undeniable evidence, broke that rule very early on.
-
-
A most instructive thread on this subject, and I have learned much. I personally do not favor the original cap, which does not meet my own (perhaps amateurish) Erel standards, even after all these submissions, but then we are always learning. I thank everyone for their useful contributions.Comment
-
Late reply
I have gathered some photos and will show you below what i was talking about before, it may be a bit easier to some of you to understand then........
1. All caps posted here have more or less the same type of gromets, some are all from brass, some are from brass and grey metal some are from grey metal only. The first type is much neater then the second type. Gary have now made a new photo of the ventilation hole in the Brown piped SS cap..........you can see it here below.
This have a brass outside and a grey metal gromets inside as it is a later war cap, even more later they where all by metal as mentioned above (Not so common as Erel stopped making the ventilated caps towards the end of the war, they still have the vented cocade but no hole). This later type of ventilation rivets are cruder and are not looking as neat as the rivets and hole NTZ showed in his cap (First type of ventilation rivets)
Here are some pictures of a Heer Artillery Erel with the same rivet set up as the SS cap above. Difference is just that the SS cap above show more age to the rivets.
(This is the cruder ventilation rivets as I called the second type which according to all "experts" in this thread does not exist!)
Here are a couple of other caps with variation of the same theme, note finishing of lining in the last two!
Furter to the finishing of the lining in the Erel caps, here are pictures of a Heer Erel late war Panzercap with a badly finsihed rayon lining, as well as a Heer Inafntry Erel one with frayed lining due to wear. Not all are neatly finished as showed here and with previous photos, it is a matter of when the cap was made, the later in the war, the larger risk for a cruder finish.
As to NTZ statement that that later war Erels do not have any marking..........well that is also not totally correct, they have a marking, but it have dissapeared, if looking really close to the sweatshield one can see that it once where there.
Ok, so now we are hopefully done with the ventilation holes on this cap.
Just a couple of words also re the coloured piping, as caps was made through the entire war with coloured piping, and looking at this cap and the time it most certainly was manufactured, it should acctually be for KZ as Recon at that time definatly had golden yellow.
Now some other coments!
If you have not seen any of above, no problem, it is probably because you have not hade enough referencematerial to look at.......but just because you have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist!
It irritating that some of you just go on and on with your assumptions ..........you allways assume something is bad even if the pictures of the item is blurry and one really can make no conclusions at all.
You love to bash things instead of trying to learn or to really figure out what you have in front of your eyes. What is possible....was there variations.
There usually pop upp a couple of "know it all´s" and they are allways the same guys! They have allready chased away good and knowledgable contributors and moderators from this forum.......soon they will be all alone with their "know it all" and bashing attitude, and this forum will IMO be as useless as the rest!!
To those who see anomalities I can just advise to buy glasses and study Erel caps MUCH more.
To those who are used to spend thousands of $$ on fakes and now belive they suddenly are experts, please be a bit more humble!!
There will allways be those who don´t like the cap, fine.........don´t like it, but IMO you will not find one more original SS Brown piped cap then this.
Peter
Comment
-
Peter I think you made a good point with the photos regarding the different conditions of the linings ends. You are also correct when I misspoke regarding the absence of markings. The one thing that hasn’t been resolved via these photos is the air hole grommet. Every one you posted was the tube type were the ends of the tube are crimped over a washer on the inside. Some in the photos were done more crudely and some had lost the washer but none were like the on that was originally posted. From the photos it appears to be a solid piece with no sign of a tube coming through or crimping. Now this just might be the photo and it looks this way but we can only go off of that photo because that is all we have to judge.
I can assure you my intent was not to bash you or any other dealer. There are just things about the cap that were out of the norm and that is what we were discussing. There was no attempt on my part to make anything personal as I have nothing to gain by that. In fact I could only loose.Comment
-
NTZ............
The first picture in my last post is from the KZ SS cap in question! It is newly taken by Gary!!!!
The blurry first pictures i had in my archive probably just looked like something else for you, and maybee I was not clear enough before.
Here you can see that first picture highlighted and cut down.
Cheers
Peter
Comment
-
Hi All -
The only thing I can add to the discusion is a minor point - in my opinion, the late-war Erels that seem to have "lost" their imprints under the sweat diamond never had them inked on in the first place - there is only the impression where they were stamped. Even mint late-war examples show no evidence of the silver inking, whereas if you look at a heavily-worn mid or early war example, you see that the silver ink may have flaked off, remaining in the sweat diamond in pieces if it is still intact. Whether this is from heat, hair oil, or whatever is beyond my ability to tell, but I believe that for whatever reason Lubstein quit using ink to stamp their logo in the crown of the liner late in the war.
DonLast edited by DonC; 05-15-2006, 02:17 PM.Comment
-
Peter if this is the KZ grommet then I rescind all my doubts regarding the grommet. From the first photo, this is not what I was seeing. From this photo they’re in nothing wrong with the grommet.Comment
-
Yes, that is the gromet from the cap in question in this thread.
Thank you for your comment! It is appreciated!
PeterComment
-
It seems a grommet has ended this thread. The authenticity of the venting grommet - apparently acknowledged as Erel - has confirmed to the satifaction of the participants that the cap in question is okay?
I guess the moral of this story is submit real good & detailed photos.Comment
-
Wouldn't it be nice for everyone in the collecting community if a publishing company would put a few of these guys up for a while somewhere nice together, hired to complete the task of writing a GOOD collection of reference material? The amount of knowledge they could (and should, in my opinion!) contribute to the formulation of textbook material on this highly deserving subject would be nothing short of spectacular!
I hope some day that someone finds the money and time to dedicate to publishing a complete (or at least as complete as possible) series of reference books about visor caps in general - we really need to consolidate all of this information in a formal way some day!
We almost need a "Wittman" series of textbooks about visors . . .
JMHO
BradComment
-
Boy you are not kidding Brad. Just look at the pool of Knowledge we have on this forum alone not to mention all the collectors who don’t participate on the forums. Get together 20 of the best minds, put the egos aside and get to work.Originally posted by Brad Long View Post
Just an aside since this thread was brought back from the grave. The grommet issue was my mistake and my rant. There was still plenty of discussion on this visor offline (were it should have taken place anyway). I think the consensus remand the same.Comment
-
And still not having it hand to make a judgement does not put this visor as fake. My opinion PVL has more knowledge and handles more daily than most in a year. Not here to offend anyone personally, But buy a handfull of pictures...c`mon now. The book sounds great, but egos would get into the way, thats the problem.
GaryComment
-
Gary you are right on all points. I is just one of those pieces that IMO is not a one looker. The visor may indeed be 110% dead on correct. Those who have not held it will never know.Originally posted by RUHL13 View Post
I just wanted to add one more thing. Remember PVL is a collector just like the rest of us. He does come up with some fantastic pieces on his site but just like the rest of us he has his own opinion and can make mistakes too. There is no god in this hobby just a bunch of guys trying to figure out what the hell went on 60+ years ago. As long as there is money to be made on fakes they will exist and we will do our best to weed them out but without flawless forensics it will all remain just opinion.Last edited by NTZ; 12-01-2006, 06:05 PM.Comment
-
All of these opinions, and all of the individual reasons for these opinions are why I feel it is time all collectors shout out that is time we put all of the "master-minds" together and produce a CURRENT reference book for everyone to learn from and enjoy. Wittmann did it for daggers - why can't someone do it for visors?
I think it's time that we all have a CONGRUENT starting reference for every visor collector to learn from and compound on just like the dagger-collecting community has . . .
If I had the cash, I know I would invest a wise-dollar in this direction! I really hope someone capable accepts the task some day soon!
BradComment
-
Hello Brad, I think you have come up with a fantastic idea that would help out the collecting community a great deal. Every book, along with Whitmanns on Daggers, has acknwledgements, aleast 50 or so. It was not done alone, he had input by several knowledgable collectors. But to start a reference book on visors you will need the same, "knowledgable collectors". I for one could name a few on this forum, NTZ would be a definate candidate. My opinion some of his calls on visors have been dead on right. Benvk is also another. The list is starting guys. This could be a serious thread to start thinking about. It may be just a fantasy hoping to happen but Brad has planted the seed. Since there a many on SS Headgear. Reference on Heer, Luft, Kriegs, etc. is a thought.
Could this happen?
Regards,
GaryComment
Comment