Kz Lager Officer Visor

[Antiquefrog]

Great discussion, and I thank colleagues Coleman, Abenheim and Peter v L for comments. Agree this does not fit Erel profile and construction detail. Agree likelihood of survival of such a cap almost zero. I would shy away from such an offering on principle; there is so much else to be had out there. The proof is resale: the real value of anything is what you can sell it for the same day you bought it. So what's your price?

[NTZ]

As a collector who solely bought Erel’s for the first 8 years of my cap collecting I have seen my fair share of both good and bad. I in no way can I claim to have handled as many as PVL but I think I am well versed enough to tell an untouched original from something that is, shall we say questionable. To be fair to all I think we need to look at this cap as just another Third Reich Erel first and try to block out for the moment the fact that it is a colored piped SS. I also think that better photos are a must before any solid opinion can be made. With all of that being said I can see from the photos (and solely based on the present photos) were there would be some concern regarding the attachment of the sweatband. This could be from natural aging as with most Erel’s the sweatbands seem to get dry and brittle and crack and flake. This could possibly explain the odd look to the area around the stitching. If this were even just another run of the mill Erel army visor I would want a hands on this one or at the very least much better photos. We must also not let who it came from cloud any judgment. I know one thing, a year or two ago I picked up an Erel Army visor that from all photos appeared to be 100% pure textbook. When I got it and did my standard due diligence there was something that bothered me about it. After poking and prodding every corner of the visor I came to the firm conclusion that it was re-assembled post war with mostly original parts. Either that or they were reconditioning Erel visors wartime with spare parts, lol. I was told the visor came from a very well known European dealer (one not known for selling fakes). Better photos are in order here but I do see the room for concern.

[Lucky Duck]

And Gary, if you want to give it back to me, or have it resold, I would be happy to take it back or handle the sale, because this is probably one of the very few...........if any other original......SS brown piped Officers cap existing.

Cheers

Peter v l

If I was Gary, I'd take Peter up on this offer.

Ray

[Bob Coleman]

Peter-
Thank you for joining the discussion. In the end, we all must collect what we are comfortable with. A dealer of respect, such as Peter, will always stand behind what they sell. Peter is quite correct regarding the institution of the brown piping for KZ Lager personel. I hope a few more experienced collectors will join in on this interesting thread.
Bob

PS: Peter, you are quite correct in noting that the hat may look very different in hand then it does in the posted images

[RUHL13]

Thank you Peter, sorry you got kind of dragged in here, your right I am not good at picture taking. And yes, pictures will never do this visor any justice. Wish I could show all the points on this visor which makes it 100% correct. I do own other Erel made visors, and some are not exactly the same in construction, stitching, etc. It all comes down to if your happy with what you own. Thanks again Peter, and everyone on this thread. We may not all agree, but that is what makes this hobby, addiction, interesting. .
Regards,
Gary

[BenVK]

It all comes down to if your happy with what you own.

Amen to that!

A few observations from what's been said.

I always feel it's a slight mistake to post average or poor photos of anything from ones collection on the forum, especially if it's a potentially very rare piece. They will only attract negative comments it seems and until better images are supplied, you will always be on the back foot trying to defend it.

An authentic piece will always stand up for itself regardless of where it came from, who it was bought from or how many other similar pieces have been seen here on the forum recently.

I found Derek's comments about the likelyhood of brown piped caps being issued to Reconnaissance corps rather than to the KL system very interesting. Are we saying here that it's impossible to tell the difference because the shade of brown piping was identical for both branches? To help unravel that issue, please check out the additional photos I posted of the brown piped NCO's cap I posted on the other thread. I would appreciate some feedback about this particular shade of brown.

Cheers
Ben

[RUHL13]

Derek,
Was not Recon more of a copper brown than a darker chocolate brown? And then there was the color changes over the years.

[Antiquefrog]

The jury will be out on this until the cows come home absent better pictures. To me, it still lacks Erel signature charcteristics, though taken as a whole it is one of the more promising caps of this nature, this very rare nature, shown to date.

[nederland]

It may be a moot point but Bob's referencing new contributors as new to collecting is not so true. As demonstrated above, the man got the hat from a good source and a knowledgable individual. I'm in year 43 of collecting but have only been a contributor for two months. I just hate to see people trying to share their prizes and the only responses are negative even though a good deal of items deserve a thumbs down. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and you know what 'they' say about opinions........Ned

[Bob Coleman]

It may be a moot point but Bob's referencing new contributors as new to collecting is not so true. As demonstrated above, the man got the hat from a good source and a knowledgable individual. I'm in year 43 of collecting but have only been a contributor for two months. I just hate to see people trying to share their prizes and the only responses are negative even though a good deal of items deserve a thumbs down. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and you know what 'they' say about opinions........Ned

Ned-
I am not sue what your reference to my comments on new collectors means but frankly, it is obvious that a new collector is more likely to be taken than an experienced collector. That is not to say that old timers cannot also be fooled. Let us take the source of the hat out of this discussion and look at the responses on this hat from knowledgable collectors who I consider to have more than "a little bit of knowledge."
I have been at this longer than you and at this point in my life, feel I have a pretty good handle on fake versus period visor caps. I will go further to say that I am very familiar with the fake Erel visor hats, which are in several generations at this time. I unfortunatley bought several when I returned to collecting after a long hiatus. Nothing presented has changed my opinion on this hat to this point. What are we to do. Educate or appease when we see problems?
Bob

[BenVK]

Personnaly I don't think it matters whether you've been collecting 5 years or 50. You either know what you're talking about or you don't. I've met some collectors and dealers in the UK who have been in this game for decades but talk utter rubbish.
However, the key advantage that long time experience gives you IMO, is the knowledge of what's been on the market over many years. One of us younger guys might look at a cap and be suspicious that it might be an old fake. Bob or Donald for example would look at the same cap and be positive it was a fake because they remember seeing identical ones back in the day. You have to trust your own judgement but it would be foolish to ignore that kind of information when it's offered.
Back to the cap in question, I'm not sure how Bob can be positive in his conclusion based on these awful photos (no offence Gary) but if he has concerns, I for one would hear him out.

[Daniele C]

Ben, i couldnt agree more with what you just said

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=BenVK]Personnaly I don't think it matters whether you've been collecting 5 years or 50. You either know what you're talking about or you don't. I've met some collectors and dealers in the UK who have been in this game for decades but talk utter rubbish.

Now here is a fellow who obviously understands the difference between years in the hobby verses creditable knowledge.

B. N. Singer

[GFM]

I have one question I hope that someone here can enlighten me on since I am a bit confused, and this is regardless of the validity of the hat itself being an original SS visor;

Why is it that all these brown piped SS officer visors are referred to as KZ when during the 'authorized' time period of April - November of 1940 brown piping was for reconnaisance????

Brown piping was not used for KZ until 2 years after the end of the authorized period. Yet I never see these hats referred to as reconnaisance piped visors.

I'm not trying to start any trouble here, just making a very logical observation and wondering why this particular point is not being discussed in any depth.

[DonC]

Hi Mike -

Probably two reasons - one, KZ is probably for some reason, sick as it may be, considered a "sexier" branch. Two, the copper brown piping is probably simply more well known for KZ than for recon. Sort of like every carmine piped visor I have ever seen on a web site has been called General Staff. Nobody wants their carmine visors to belong to a lowly Veterinarian...

Don