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**bwanek1** · 04-06-2006, 07:09 AM

The eagle is an obvious fake.

The TK looks like it could be an RZM 52.

Brad

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-06-2006, 07:21 AM

Thanks for your opinion Brad!

Brad

**Donald Abenheim** · 04-06-2006, 10:24 AM

schwarze Muetze

This cap diverges from what most hold to be the standard, but it is within the realm of the possible, perhaps. Surely certain caps had a black interior, as did many officer's caps. However, the cap band seems of different material than the cover, which is slightly odd. The market demands conformity with what group think dictates is a kind of pattern. In this case, the pattern lusted for by the majority is the cap with plentiful markings. However, there surely were caps of extra quality with such a lining, and perhaps this is one of these. I should not think that this cap at hand can command the price of, say, the early cap with white tag that Shea just sold off. Viel Sammlerglueck

**BenVK** · 04-06-2006, 10:42 AM

Looks to be an earlier SS cap (1934,35?) without the waterproof lining and runes. I was also wondering why the band material is different to the cover but it all looks authentic. As said, the eagle is a fake, not sure about the TK but I think it's ok.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-06-2006, 11:07 AM

Ben and Brad,

One thing about the insignia is a mystery to me - the original spring is still VERY intact inside (and quite rusted), and the cheesecloth material in the area of the prongs for both insignia is quite undisturbed. I can even see very even aging/discoloration around the prongs for both, and in the patina of the insignia as well - they are one heck of a match! If they were ever altered at any time, somebody sure did a great job!

Donald,

The cap band and the cap material itself is a definite match - I just have bad pictures I guess . . ..

This cap came to me from Houston Coates here in Cincinnati about 15 years ago. He apparently received it from a lady at a Show in Tennessee - apparently a Vet's Wife "walk-in" or something? I have enjoyed it for many years, and now I think it's time to let someone else enjoy stewardship . . .

Brad

P.S. Donald, you sure have an interesting way of speaking your mind - it takes me (and I'm sure others as well) some time with my "thinking cap" on to fully comprehend your comments . . . . I kind of like it!

**Donald Abenheim** · 04-06-2006, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Brad Long

Ben and Brad,

One thing about the insignia is a mystery to me - the original spring is still VERY intact inside (and quite rusted), and the cheesecloth material in the area of the prongs for both insignia is quite undisturbed. I can even see very even aging/discoloration around the prongs for both, and in the patina of the insignia as well - they are one heck of a match! If they were ever altered at any time, somebody sure did a great job!

Donald,

The cap band and the cap material itself is a definite match - I just have bad pictures I guess . . ..

This cap came to me from Houston Coates here in Cincinnati about 15 years ago. He apparently received it from a lady at a Show in Tennessee - apparently a Vet's Wife "walk-in" or something? I have enjoyed it for many years, and now I think it's time to let someone else enjoy stewardship . . .

Brad

P.S. Donald, you sure have an interesting way of speaking your mind - it takes me (and I'm sure others as well) some time with my "thinking cap" on to fully comprehend your comments . . . . I kind of like it!

Pity my poor students. The spirochetes have worked their damage over the years. If the cap band matches the cap cover, then there is less source of concern. To be sure, any generalization based on electronic images in many cases represents incomplete data. One has to examine a piece in hand, and your description of the cap spring, the badges, &c. is important. Per saldo: I have looked at too many of these in my life. Best of luck in your sale and best wishes to the new owner. It is germane here to recall that these caps came in the everyday version, with a water proof lining, and a Sonderanfertigung type, which this appears to be. There existed more variety in these caps in the early-phase of say 1932-1935 or so, whereafter they tended to cleave to the vom RFSS befohlene Ausfuehrung of standardization. The question one would ask about this piece, though, is the wool of the same hand as in the every day kind of cap? The wool in the caps for extra wear tended to be of better quality, i.e. softer, than the einfache Ausfuehrung. PS apropos knowledge, I have far more to learn, as well. I owe a great debt to Derek Chapman, whose own work we all await with strong interest.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-06-2006, 12:45 PM

Donald,

Thanks again. The intellect and experience you offer here is greatly appeciated. It never ceases to amaze me how much knowledge I have yet to gain . . .

Brad

P.S. The material in the hat is about as soft as I have ever felt - much softer than my other EM visors (WSS that is).

**bwanek1** · 04-06-2006, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Brad Long

One thing about the insignia is a mystery to me - the original spring is still VERY intact inside (and quite rusted), and the cheesecloth material in the area of the prongs for both insignia is quite undisturbed. I can even see very even aging/discoloration around the prongs for both, and in the patina of the insignia as well - they are one heck of a match! If they were ever altered at any time, somebody sure did a great job!

I am 100% certain that eagle is a reproduction. Absolutely no doubt. It may have been on that cap a long time, but not for 60 years!

Brad

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-06-2006, 02:16 PM

Brad,

Thanks for the info!

Brad

**Antiquefrog** · 04-06-2006, 06:15 PM

I can offer little insight here, other than, given the disturbed interior of this cap, evident moth nips, and apparently controversial insignia (which I cannot attest to), such an example would most likely fetch something less than the going 4-5K rate despite possible elevated status in its time. These EM caps are abundant, and the wellspring of attic finds (unlike their officer counterparts) - there will always be better ones coming along.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-07-2006, 05:13 AM

Bruce,

I respectfully appreciate your inspirational "insight" and opinion, although I perceive it as somewhat malicious in intent and mood. I honestly agree with some of the prejudiced speculations you have chosen to highlight in expressing yourself to some degree. The cap has a "disturbed" interior, there are (2) very minor moth nips in the band (none anywhere else that I can find - not even in the piping), and maybe the eagle is an old reproduction (it was this way when I received it). You state that such an example in "elevated status" would fetch 4-5K - I agree with that statement given the current markets. For the fellow outside of this "elevated status" that you have so euphamistically chosen association with, the 3K plus being asked for in sale of the cap sounds like it may be more in align than I at first thought!

I agree that EM caps are more abundant than the Officer version, but they are not truly abundant in existance. Yes, there are a handful currently available, but not in the numbers you insinuate. "Attic finds" do indeed occur, and better examples than this have or will come along. But in the same breath, I believe this cap carries enough warranted merits that someone outside the circle in which you travel will greatly appreciate the amount of enjoyment it still has to offer . . . .

Thanks again for your opinion

,

Brad

**bwanek1** · 04-07-2006, 07:37 AM

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but to be clear, there is no "maybe" about the eagle.

During my younger days (long before there was an internet), I bought two of these birds for my collection. They could be found in different materials and finishes, which seemed to parallel the evolution seen in the peaked cap insignia made by other manufacturers like Deschler. I had one in brass/tombac and one in aluminum. I also believed the "pigeon" head was a sign that this was one of the earlier transitional designs, which retained the smaller head style from the earlier eagles originally used on the kepis. I also thought the marking convention, RZM 40, was similar to the early RZM 52 Deschler TKs, adding evidence that these were early eagles. In this case, the 40 would have meant they were made by C. Meinel & W. Scholer, Klingenthal.

I have since learned these eagles to be what they are, old fakes.

Here is yours:

Here is my brass one with similar aging:

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>

Here is my "later" aluminum style:

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>

**N.C. Wyeth** · 04-07-2006, 08:10 AM

Brad,

No doubt about it - the horse was dead a long time ago. You're just pulpifying what's left . . . .

I agree with almost all of the observations everyone has made. The cap is not the most pristine that ever came across the market, but it is still very nice in it's own respects. Donald did a nice job of pointing out all of the academic aspects of the cap, both positive and negative, in a more professional manner. This is the way I had hoped all of the members here would present themselves . . . .

Regardless, thanks again for all of your input. I really appreciate all of the knowledge everyone here (and elsewhere) offers, and it still intriques me too see how much more information can be found to further fathom every day I get out of bed . . . .

Brad

**Antiquefrog** · 04-07-2006, 05:00 PM

Brad - I agree with your points completely; I am only trying to look at this from a collector'standpoint. A dead-perfect EM cap would cost only about 30% more, with correct insignia, intact interior, no mothing. When it comes time for re-sale, these factors will be critical - especially with the common EM cap, which (I stress) owes its price rather more to populatity than rarity as the entry point to the SS visor field. There are, no doubt, thousands of these extant - consider SS membership numbers before the pre-war transition to grey uniforms - even then, EM's outnumbered officers by nearly 30:1. The black EM visor will always be readily available - my advice, if you want one, buy the best one you can find, private-purchase if possible, correct insignia, no flaws. A rising tide lifts all ships except those with holes.

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