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**ReichsHeini** · 03-21-2006, 09:34 AM

ThirdReichDepot????

"Oh, I am sure it must exist because they have them on the Thirdreichdepot!"
yep, that's it.
When I am looking for original SS stuff I know that I can always find the rarest and most valuable at TRD. (turd?)
So seriously all this talk about how the insignia might be made in silver,
old photocopied ads but not one decent example posted ever by anyone that we can look at and say it is original.
Third Reich Depot Thats where I want to gfo to find the good stuff ...oh yeah!

**Daniele C** · 03-21-2006, 09:48 AM

Do i wrong or you sound a bit sarcastic?

**Donald Abenheim** · 03-21-2006, 11:31 AM

Geduld

Maybe the continental US collectors can explain in measured terms certain issues with certain continental US sources of material, while remaining within the guidelines here. I should think if one were a European trying to make sense of all the North American sites, it would be a little difficult, in fact. We here take certain things for granted that others cannot, in view of the marvels of the McCluhan age. Suffice it to say, I have bought no cap badges from the above named source.... in fact, I would be happy with any authentic cap badges, plated or otherwise, at a safe and sane price from some source.....

**Bob Coleman** · 03-21-2006, 12:22 PM

In my first collection, I owned two black visor caps that were mounted with 800 marked insignia. One was an unmarked standard office cap. The second was a Pekuro of officer quality with velvet band, high quality wool top, silver chin cord buttons and a soft leather visor. However, it was fitted with a black NCO chin strap. I personally obtained these directly from veterans in the early 1960's. They is no question that these were original pieces.
Bob

**bwanek1** · 03-21-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Bob Coleman

...One was an unmarked standard office cap. The second was a Pekuro of officer quality with velvet band, high quality wool top, silver chin cord buttons and a soft leather visor. However, it was fitted with a black NCO chin strap...

Bob,

You have some very clear memories regarding the details of the caps. What do you recall about the insignia themselves [maker marks, type and location of silver content marks, type of castings (silid or hollow back), types of pins (round or flat), how the pins were attached (soldered or crimped), etc.]?

I am assuming that solid silver would have to be cast and not die struck.

Brad

**Donald Abenheim** · 03-21-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Bob Coleman

In my first collection, I owned two black visor caps that were mounted with 800 marked insignia. One was an unmarked standard office cap. The second was a Pekuro of officer quality with velvet band, high quality wool top, silver chin cord buttons and a soft leather visor. However, it was fitted with a black NCO chin strap. I personally obtained these directly from veterans in the early 1960's. They is no question that these were original pieces.
Bob

Such evidence as this above from one of the world's leading collectors, with fifty years of experience, should be counterpoised against blanket statements based on incomplete sources and eighteen months of incomplete analysis, however persuasive the latter might seem to some. What that we could retrieve Colleague Coleman's lost caps, and mine, too, for that matter..... I just got one back, but there are three more that are Flying Dutchmen of headwear.....viel Sammerlglueck. PS Also, who has material from the Fa. Gahr of Muenchen, who were silver smiths, too, among their skills. Surely they might likely have made these things, actually. August Mueller seems to have been a contractor for headwear with a long standing connection to the SS, and surely they would have resorted to the locals, such as Gahr and maybe Deschler. Did not Deschler also make silver content regalia? Who has data on these firms at hand? Herein lie avenues of exploration in addition to the RZM price lists, which are valuable sources, but which might not cover the gamut with all of this. Also, see such thing as the catalog for the 1. dt. Architektur und Kunsthandwerkaustellung, Haus d. dt. Kunst, 22. I.- 27. III 1938, (Muenchen, 1938) as well as those editions of Kunst im dt. Reich that dealt with the handicrafts and artisanal works in their detail. Or, whatever trade publications treated the guilds or professional associations for gold and silver smiths, or jewelry generally, with the segue into the craftsmanship of orders and decorations. This evidence is there, but it is not at gun shows....or militaria extravaganzas in the usual places. Postscriptum. The catalog above has a whole page of adverts for gold and silver jewelers and craftsmen in Munich and Oberbayern.

**Bob Coleman** · 03-21-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by bwanek1

Bob,

You have some very clear memories regarding the details of the caps. What do you recall about the insignia themselves [maker marks, type and location of silver content marks, type of castings (silid or hollow back), types of pins (round or flat), how the pins were attached (soldered or crimped), etc.]?

I am assuming that solid silver would have to be cast and not die struck.

Brad

Brad-
Back in those days, nearly everything was original. Details such as type of prong, etc., were not considered important at the time. We old time collectors could never imagine what heights the field of 4th Reich reproduction has reached. I remember the hats well but as to the insignia, I have not got a clue. I was discussing the subject of 800 silver marked insignia with Peter Jenkins at the SOS. Peter has one of the largest sources of original RZM price lists and manufacturing data. He concurred with me that written evidence of 800 silver marked insigniaa exists. Possibly, I can get him to chime in on this thread also.
Bob

**Donald Abenheim** · 03-21-2006, 02:00 PM

Peter Jenkins

Please re-enlist Jenkins for all of us. When the GDC drew all the leading lights, each day offered a treasure trove of arcane knowledge of great merit, with a minimum of Katzenjammer. How it has all changed... I also am in correspondence with other luminaries with a half century experience, and I shall write to them to enlist some response. They shall remain nameless, though, but they are quite expert in this stuff.

**Bob Coleman** · 03-21-2006, 03:11 PM

Donald-
The request has been put forth.
Bob

**Gaspare** · 03-21-2006, 09:01 PM

We go round in circles,
Mr.Coleman, I believe you were rebutted about your silver cap insignia in the old GDC topic by another well known, well respected, long time collector:
"Bob Coleman; They where faking these silver fittings in the early 1960s I know for a fact two New York dealers ( send me a PM and I will give you there names ) that made batches of these 800 fine fittings. Just for your personal knowledge some of the best copies of SS hats where made from exsisting parts right after the war for GI's, that is why on some headgear they look right and yet certain parts cannot be explained . The explanation of why the RZM markings should not be there in this post is so logical that I do not see how anyone could find fault with it . I too saw hats in the early 1960's with these fittings " I definitely do not think they where real " but then I did...."

Please correct me if I'm mistaken here but I don't think Firma Gahr produced for the RZM..
Don't think the collectors will ever be happy with all this unless someone actually has some sort of period description/list with the RZM number along with the exact content mark,,sad but true,,but we can hope..,G.

**Bob Coleman** · 03-21-2006, 09:21 PM

Gaspare-
With all due repect, I doubt that in 1945, those dealing trinkets to the GI's for food and cigarettes, time and material was available to produce 800 marked insignia. I certainly know that the two hats that I vet purchased back in those days were totally legitimate and not post war assembled. I have also seen post war hats. However, they did not hold up quality wise to the period produced examples. Being an active collector back in those days, I do not remember seeing 800 silver SS insignia at the gun shows. If a person took time to produce fakes, he would have to produce enough to produce a profit also. If they existed at that time and I never saw them, so be it. However, even if this is the case, that does not dismiss the existance of period made examples.
In the early 60's, collectors were few and the fakes were not state of the art. There was enough original insignia available that many of the early fake SS visor caps actually had original insignia.
Bob

**Donald Abenheim** · 03-21-2006, 09:36 PM

pi pa po

Originally posted by Gaspare

We go round in circles,
Mr.Coleman, I believe you were rebutted about your silver cap insignia in the old GDC topic by another well known, well respected, long time collector:
"Bob Coleman; They where faking these silver fittings in the early 1960s I know for a fact two New York dealers ( send me a PM and I will give you there names ) that made batches of these 800 fine fittings. Just for your personal knowledge some of the best copies of SS hats where made from exsisting parts right after the war for GI's, that is why on some headgear they look right and yet certain parts cannot be explained . The explanation of why the RZM markings should not be there in this post is so logical that I do not see how anyone could find fault with it . I too saw hats in the early 1960's with these fittings " I definitely do not think they where real " but then I did...."

Please correct me if I'm mistaken here but I don't think Firma Gahr produced for the RZM..
Don't think the collectors will ever be happy with all this unless someone actually has some sort of period description/list with the RZM number along with the exact content mark,,sad but true,,but we can hope..,G.

I would direct your attention as concerns the Firma Gahr to this book: Anton Joachimstaler, Hitlers Liste: Ein Dokument persoenlicher Beziehungen ( Muenchen, 2003), pp. 221-239, about Karolina Gahr and her relationship (and that of her firm...) to Hitler, himself. I was under the impression that Gahr made among the 1st SA Feldzeichen, in fact, and many more, did they not? The book suggests the firm was a major contractor to the SS, as well, whether this was via the RZM, I cannot say. Further, as one who has collected SS caps since the end of the 1960s, I should like to see such an expertly made fake SS cap other than those which I recall from the mid-1960s, which, in fact, left much to be desired, even if they contained authentic fabric, for instance. However, I shall absent myself henceforth from this little set to in search of other themes.

Further, und zum Schluss, I am in correspondence with another leading light in this field, (who shall remain nameless...) whose collection stands recognized the world over and whose property populates the illustrated volumes on all our book shelves. He secured a black cap with a 800 Hoheitszeichen gratis together with several SS uniforms in the dim reaches of the past. This acquistion was at a similar moment as did colleague Coleman four decades or more ago. Said collector surely has the ability to distinguish authentic material from the fake, and I have complete faith in his assertions. Gentlemen can agree to disagree.

**afrikasandman** · 03-21-2006, 10:01 PM

Silver SS skulls

Guys, i don't really collect SS too much but am just putting out the fact that the stuff can be out there, whether or not you like the thirdreichdepot or not i was simply putting out there that there are some SS sliver marked pieces. I am a dak guy by interest and SS isn't my thing and i really should leave it up to yal to discuss, but i just wanted to simply put out for discussion where there were some that i know of. So don't strike out at me for simply putting out where i knew where there was some SS silver marked insignia. Guys are getting a little pissy on the issue. So i will just back out of this entire arguement, I generally don't collect this stuff as about 70% of the SS stuff on the market seems to be repro SS, you just can't trust anyone anymore on it. I guess my thing is that you need to be happy with your stuff as its in your collection and it only has to please you. So make up your own opinion, as you only have to please yourself. Matt

**Donald Abenheim** · 03-21-2006, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by afrikasandman

Guys, i don't really collect SS too much but am just putting out the fact that the stuff can be out there, whether or not you like the thirdreichdepot or not i was simply putting out there that there are some SS sliver marked pieces. I am a dak guy by interest and SS isn't my thing and i really should leave it up to yal to discuss, but i just wanted to simply put out for discussion where there were some that i know of. So don't strike out at me for simply putting out where i knew where there was some SS silver marked insignia. Guys are getting a little pissy on the issue. So i will just back out of this entire arguement, I generally don't collect this stuff as about 70% of the SS stuff on the market seems to be repro SS, you just can't trust anyone anymore on it. I guess my thing is that you need to be happy with your stuff as its in your collection and it only has to please you. So make up your own opinion, as you only have to please yourself. Matt

I would put the amount of fake SS stuff about somewhere in excess of 90%, but I am hardly scientific. The whole issue of SS material makes people even more than "pissy," actually. I think the words are: wahnsinnig; verrueckt; irrsinnig; meshugge; tollwutig; ausser sich vor Wahnsinn; ausgeflippt; Bewusstseinstruebung. Viel Sammlerglueck

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