WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[Gary Wood]

2

[Gary Wood]

both eagles

[SScollector]

Hi Martin!
What are the markings on the eagles?
I can't tell for sure but it looks to me like both eagles
are probably Deschlers and I'm guessing that they are marked "M1/52"
Anyway, I could probably tell you if I knew the markings.
Thanks! Chris

[Martin Stiles]

eagles

Chris , Thanks for being brave enough to make an educated
guess ,thats all you can do with views of the front only!
Its intereseting you think they are both the same maker,
Will show the backs later this week.Come you other guys
be as brave as Chris, make some comments, see if we can all
learn somthing....
Kind regards,
Martin

[Rick Turner]

Hi Martin

I finally had a chance to view the cap eagles. Cap eagles were never really a big part of my collecting; my focus was always the TKs. Thanks to these forums an amazing number of types and maker marks have been offered as examples.

From the fronts only its impossible to make a complete decision but there are conclusions to be made before looking at the backs. I don’t like the first eagle at all from the front. There are problems in the dimensions, spacing and shape of the outstretched feathers in the wings, also problems with the shape of the head.

The number two eagle looks much better. I printed out enlargements and compared to an original I have on an SS Officer’s cap. My cap eagle is a zinc based silver wash piece and although the wash is similar the exposed metal areas are different. Impossible to be sure when using a photo so I compared photos of mine with Martin’s photo and still see the same result. But it could very well be that they are in-fact different base metals.

Details are very similar throughout with the exception of the neck and entire head area, especially the eyes, being very different on Martin’s bird. The problem with the “large feathered” cap eagles is they have been showing up both ways, originals and reproductions. Most of the reproductions fail in both details and materials. I’ve tried and tried on mine to confirm the maker mark but just can’t do it without disturbing the eagle, however I do know what the reverse surface looks like and how the prongs are attached.

Conclusion, don’t like eagle number 1 from the front, if I had it hand I would already be skeptical when I turned it over to look at the back. Number two bird looks more promising and I’d be eager to flip it over and see what the backside could offer for more construction clues. Can we see the backsides Martin?

Best Regards
Rick

[Tony Barto]

Hi Rick;

Nice to see you posting!

[SScollector]

Hi Rick!
I'm glad you posted.
I too, think that the first eagle
is odd. It took me a while to arrive at my final decision
because, while in my opinion, the second eagle is definitely a Deschler, the first eagle's head looked weird to me as did a few other things. It looks very suspicious to me (as far as the detail),
and if it is not real, it could have any markings.
I am just dying to see the backs.
Also, just as you Rick, I focus much more on skulls than I do eagles but I'm certainly no expert on either one.
Thanks! Chris

[Martin Stiles]

OK Chaps,I guess I should put you out of your misery!
Thanks for joining in Rick, its a shame a few more didnt
offer a view. Both reverses sadly lack original pins,and have
been repaired poorly.
Chris, I agree with you,as far as I see,they are the same maker,
however not Deschler, but Assmann.
Rick re- bird 1 you mention the dimensions you see from the front,spacing etc.and a problem with the head shape, when I view both images they look exactly the same,although I have the added benifit of having them in hand,please tell me the differences you see?
Eagle 2, Rick, if the other eagle you are comparing it to is on the nice cap with the protective band posted on GDF ,that particular
eagle is as far as I see a M1/167 eagle,which is really quite
a different bird,by a different manufacturer,there are examples
posted by Chis on this thread.
My Eagle 2 is a frosted type finish,and I believe you are comparing it to a silver wash/paint finish which is quite different.
Eagle 1 is more a painted finish.
ok now its time to ask Gary to post the images for me,
Look forward to your next posts,thanks a lot,
kind regards
Martin

[Rick Turner]

Hi Guys

Martin I went back and looked at the photos again and I see what you mean, the number one eagle is canted a little downward and to one side, that could screw up our perspective of the head. However the relationship of the wing tip feathers is a little different. I made a negative to view, shows more of the hard lines and less of the wear and tear.



The areas where I see a difference are at the point that the feathers come down from the tips (through a compound curve) and then to a point before running horizontally to the interior feathers. On the left side of each photo (eagles right wing) it’s the number one feather (starting from the top). The compound curve appears to be slightly different between the two.

On the right side of the photo it’s the number two feather (eagles left wing) the curve and point are not as well defined on the number one (bottom) bird as they are on number two (top).

When I look at this area overall on each bird it appears that the feathers flow from the tips, through the compound curves to the point where they run horizontal in a more uniform manner on bird number two (top one in above photo).

Although minor traits as these are something to look for, doesn’t mean two pieces from the same factory will be the exactly the same.

Martin you are correct on the comparison of these eagles to the one on my #1 SS Officer’s hat (the Mouse House), the one with the protective band. The eagle on that hat is certainly different manufacture and finish, plus its definitely not a “large feathered” eagle. However, the eagle on my #2 SS Officer’s hat is very similar to your number two bird and I think you’ll find that comparison very interesting.

I archived the pictures away but I’ll dig them out and post here later.

Cheers
Rick

[Gary Wood]

posting pictures for martin first the 155/36 with the bad pin repair

[Gary Wood]

and the m1/17 eagle,

[Rick Turner]

Here are some images of my “large feathered” cap eagle on my #2 SS Officer’s Hat for comparison. This is the eagle that I tried to see the backside of but just can’t do it without significantly disturbing the hat and eagle, so I won’t.


















Rick

[Martin Stiles]

Hi, Rick, Great images, I will have to sort my camera man out!!
I need that sort of close up.
A quick last post for today , I admire your reluctance to disturbe
the insignia, I am always overcome by curiosity!
Hope you enjoy the reverses,will pick up tomorrow.
I wonder your reverse M1/17or M1/52???
thats my guess !!

kind regards
Martin

[Martin Stiles]

One last thought for the day,this thread has the biggest hit rate
so far for this forum,so great is the quest for info on this subject.
Also I have yet to see an original M1/17 TK.
Goodnight.

[SScollector]

Well, I certainly have a lot to learn when it comes to eagle makers. They are much harder to tell than the skulls.
Anyway, thanks for sharing them with us Martin (and Gary for posting them) and for what it's worth, please check out this link.
I picked up a few items today and have posted the pictures
on the germandaggers.com forum and the link is below.
I really hope to get some opinions. Thanks! Chris

Click here!