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**SScollector** · 04-07-2003, 09:52 AM

Hi guys!
A couple things that I forgot to mention is that whether or not
Assmann ever used "M1/17" on their SS cap insignia,
it is believed among most collectors that they didn't and therefore, I will stay away from them unless further information is found and proven true and I'm sure that most of you would do the same unless one is obtained from a vet and thus so far,
has never happened to my knowledge.

Also, I forgot to mention that Assmann also used Deschler's code "254/42" on their skulls at some point in time but for what reason, I do not know (maybe they just didn't make many skulls and worked as a branch of the Deschler company for the tks).
So this code, "254/42" if I'm not mistaken, can be found on either Deschler or Assmann skulls but the Assmanns are rare.

Thanks! Chris

**SScollector** · 04-07-2003, 10:05 AM

Hi Jean,

"Ges.Gesch." was used on at least two types of skulls.
Assmann skulls can be found marked with only "Ges.Gecsh."
and nothing more. Also as I put in my list, Deschler made some early skulls that were marked "RZM D.S.M. Ges.Gesch."
and I believe there were a few that were unmarked
(possibly missed the RZM inspection).
Also, it is believed that no real skulls have been found with the RZM SS markings such as: "RZM SS 155/36" as found on the Assmann eagles.
Thanks! Chris

**Martin Stiles** · 04-07-2003, 10:29 AM

Hello, Chris,
My use of the word "common" was relative of course.
Thanks for posting your list and the inclusion
of M1/167 eagles, this being one of the rarer manufactures, I
still feel there seems to be an imbalance in production of skulls
and eagles.
lets see more input,
kind regards
Martin

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-07-2003, 11:13 AM

Wow, Chris! Just a little bit of order before going further...
One, RZM SS 35/36 marked SS buckles are found on BOTH SS Officer buckles AND SS EM Buckles. All those SS Buckles (EM and/or Officers) were made by Overhoff, this is certified by similar dies defects found on both markings. Remains to know if it was an error (buckles bearing 35/36 needed to be read in fact as 36/35) which will means Overhoff received # 36 by 1935, which is very probable since he was for one the original patent holder of the design, and two was one of the first makers (if not the first) to receive a very early RZM # to produce SS buckles. OR he could have received # 35 as number for a set order early in 1936, and this 35 # been an order # instead of a maker's number. OR he could have received # 35 as a provisory maker number early in 1936 and received the final one (36) later. All options are still opened.

Two, you have listed two skulls with "Ges.Gesch.". Only one maker has the righteous patent. The other one is probably paying royalties to the patent holder or you could also deal with production made by the same maker. Referring to other cases and in regards of what you guys are saying is found today, it is more than likely that Deschler had this patent and did manufacture both of these skulls (no guarantee but more likely).

Third, Where did you take the input Assmann could have produced the skulls marked "Ges.Gesch" (even if it is possible)? There is not a single SS skull listed in any Assmann catalog I have (I agree I do not have them all and many items sold by makers were not listed in catalogs but...)?

Fourth, where did you take the input #254 was associated to Assmann in 1942? You said it was Deschler code, so if it is proven Deschler did not produce anything with this number in 1942, and Assmann did not produce anything with number 155 during the same year, it could be a possibility - unlikely but still possible. So far, I do not have records of 155 associated with the year 1942.

Fifth, S.P.40 marked whatever does not make = M1/24 if it is just a "looks like". The RZM provided a standardization, and it is normal to have a rather common "looks like". Only study side by side of both skulls which will reveal the exact same die's defect will tell (or an original document).

**SScollector** · 04-07-2003, 01:16 PM

Hi Jean and everyone!
I will try to explain a few things.
First, Bob Hritz told me that he has seen original Assmann skulls marked RZM 254/42 and with the Assmann "A" symbol and "Ges.Gesch."
This is why I believe Assmann worked for Deschler with the skulls
or had some connection but they both have been found with "Ges.Gesch."
Bob Hritz also posted a picture (on germandaggers.com) of an original Deschler skull marked "RZM D.S.M Ges.Gesch."
I have also been told that the possibility of both having
Ges.Gesch could be because no one manufacture could have patented the Totenkopf altogether (most likely), and therefore each manufacture would have had their own skull design and the rights to it.
The patent would simply be for each manufacture's skull design.
However, you may be right about the patents and the reason for the Assmann skulls being marked "Ges.Gesch." could be because
their skulls were actually owned by Deschler.
The reason this sounds to me like a possibility is because
I've never heard of any of the other manufacture's insignia being marked with "Ges.Gesch." Only Deschler and Assmann
but all four of these manufacture's skull designs can very easily be distinguished from one another as they all have their own look.
The reason I personally feel that "S. P. 40" is Overhoff
is because it looks the same to me.
There is no proof of this and even if the die characteristics were different, it would probably be because they changed their dies just like Overhoff changed their belt buckle dies every year, (as you said), but they still look almost exactly the same.
I'm not trying to come on as some expert because I'm just beginning but I just wanted to share with you all what I think based on what I've found so far, in hopes that it might be helpful to you all. Like I said, we just have to try and put together the most logical explanations based on the facts that we have obtained on things like this and we may very well disagree in various ways and there is no harm in that.
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks! Chris

**Gary Wood** · 04-07-2003, 03:13 PM

JP
"Ges.Gesch."
some of the dutch made tk's are just so marked "Ges.Gesch.", I bought 2 of these from peter jenkins sometime ago so maybe he could tell you where the factury was that they were from, as I remember there were some eagles as well as non ss items in the large group he bought, but it is sometime ago
cheers,
Gary

**Adrian Stevenson** · 04-07-2003, 03:31 PM

Hi Guys, I saw that the RZM M1/167 eagle was mentioned so I thought that I would add a pic of mine. The eagle is heavily vaulted.
Cheers, Ade.

Attached Files

1.jpg (13.7 KB, 1071 views)

**Adrian Stevenson** · 04-07-2003, 03:33 PM

Reverse. The eagle has a silver wash finish which as you can see is missing in places.

Attached Files

1.jpg (14.4 KB, 1078 views)

**Adrian Stevenson** · 04-07-2003, 03:36 PM

Makers mark details. Sorry the pic is not great, but it is the best I can do after a few drinks

Cheers, Ade.

Attached Files

1.jpg (12.2 KB, 1069 views)

**Gary Wood** · 04-07-2003, 03:38 PM

"Hi,GARY, Please explain / illustrate the traits shown in fake M1/17
eagles, I would be gratful.
Cheers
Martin."

Martin,
As JP will tell you something's are best left not said, and that is how it is, recently it was pointed out to me that details given about a particular badge and what its faults were, were corrected and a new bread was up and on the market in weeks!

But I am sure that if you look carefully you will notice the differences.
cheers,
gary

**Gary Wood** · 04-07-2003, 04:07 PM

RE m1/17 cap eagles and TK

To some this is old hat, advice (opinions) have been given by many, as is everyone's right some disagree with the general concessus that is also fine that is what forums like these are for.

But as you will have noticed some do not now reply, you might ask why, well probably because you can only go over things so many times before it becomes tedious, then some get sarcastic because they are not getting the answers to there questions, nobody is under any obligation to reply to your question I think some forget that.

If you are going to go against the general thinking and questioning that concessus and change that concessus way of thinking then come up with some new Hard evidence and present it,

cheers,
Gary

**Gary Wood** · 04-07-2003, 06:33 PM

Perhaps someone can post a picture of the Assmann eagle and tk from there cat, a good picture or e-mail me it I will put the m1/17 eagle and tk next to the pictures for you
cheers,
Gary

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-07-2003, 11:05 PM

I still do not really understand why the previous thread was split in two, but I will quit posting now since I am afraid the new one does no longer makes sense. Many replies were made following a previous question/input posted in the former thread and I am not sure that we could understand several answers without reading the previous input.

So, I hope the previous thread will generate the wish to find out more in original documents since they "are" evidence, or at least part of it. Many documents are very easy to find (at least the ones I referred to), it just takes time to read them (I know, it is not fun and request a lot of time but it is the base no matter what). Assmann catalogs are offered for sale in the form of a re-print and original ones are available from time to time (average price $100).

Anyway, I will finish with my two last answers related to the former thread:

To Gary: Ges.Gesch. means the physical (artistic) design is patented, not the production. If another maker changes something obvious from a pattented design (for example, drawing a skull with square eyes instead of rounded - of course it is just an example) this maker can apply for his own patent. I really don't know how a protected patent (Ges.Gesch.) registered in Germany could be enforced in Belgium or Nederland, or vice versa, even if those countries were under German occupation. Maybe a trip to Belgium and/or Nederland with a visit to a commercial attorney dealing with older commercial laws could bring the answer. So far, even full understanding of the German procedures regarding gesetzlich geschuetzt is still unclear as well as why it was still in use during the Third Reich since any Party insignia was automatically protected. I can only provide the information I have (and God knows it is not a lot on this subject) and it is up to the reader to have his own interpretation.
Also, I repeat I still did not see ANY SS skull listed in catalogs "I" have from Assmann. Maybe others have some pages I have missing and can help you??

To Chris,
Thank you for your update. I will contact BH for photo of his skull and read the story behind it. As we saw lot of things are possible, and any new input is interesting to listen, especially dealing with 1941 and/or 1942. I personally like very much your inputs, and it is always a pleasure to try to provide available information to your inquiries. Up to each individual to take or leave what he wants and make his own opinion. Learning is not always blind accepting and you are very right to follow your own path.

Best Regards to All

**Gary Wood** · 04-08-2003, 07:10 AM

JP,
I agree when I re read the post it did not make much sense so they are all back in this thread,

however I still think a thread dedicated to just m1/17 and 155 is warranted for those that want to discuss that and if they are real or fake so this thread does not get snowed under with questions just on the above assmann numbers as it is doing now,

so those wanting further discussions on "just that" I have started such a thread for you, you can copy and paste your original post's into post's on that thread if you so want

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...threadid=22149

cheers,
Gary

**Gary Wood** · 04-08-2003, 07:22 AM

"To Gary: Ges.Gesch. means the physical (artistic) design is patented, not the production."

JP,
I am aware of what Ges Gesch. means
cheers,
gary

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