Bullion visor cap eagle

[BenVK]

Can I have some opinions of this cap eagle please?
I know they're as rare as hen's teeth and I've got nothing on file to compare it too but it looks pretty good to me. What do you think?
The camera was on a slight angle to the bird for this shot.
Cheers
Ben

[Bobwirtz]

I have my doubts about this one. First of all the embroidery should be tighter with a better defined head and swastika. The wings should be longer and thinner. The black backing is too big, should be cut closer to the embroidery. There are other differences in the embroidery pattern too but they may be because of differences between manufacturers.

Bob

[BenVK]

Thanks Bob, do you think it might have a chance? You wouldn't happen to have one to compare it to that you could post photos of?

[Bobwirtz]

No sorry. The only one that I've seen is the one in Angolia's CLOTH INSIGNIA OF THE SS. Ray Embree owns that piece and I've seen it in person -- once -- many years ago. I used the book and some seriously old memory to compare yours. Given a chance at it myself, I would smile and pass on it politely.

Bob

[ReichsHeini]

I don't care for the quality of that bird.
The one original I have seen was done just like a sleeve eagle with 3,6,9,12 highlights and tight embroidery. Oxidation visible also which I don't see here.
Jerry

[BenVK]

Thanks Jerry, Bob.
Is it fair to say that when looking at ss bullion cap eagles, we should be always comparing them in style and quality to bullion sleeve eagles? From what I've seen, this example I've posted is not in the same ball park quality wise to most "confirmed" original sleeve eagles I admit . Having said that, if this were a heer cap eagle, I would argue that most would pass it as a perfectly good example (based on this photo alone) e.g. the tightness of the embroidery and core material would pass muster don't you think?
From my research I've come to realise that the textbook ss bullion eagle, whether cap or sleeve etc doesn't really exist. There are too many variations in reality to be 100% sure (including weird looking original made Dutch, Baltic State countries etc examples that most collectors would probably laugh at)
It's a tricky state of affairs I know and the limit number of responses to this thread only proves that.
Apart from conjecture concerning the quality, style etc, is there no sure fire way of telling authentic bullion work from modern?
Cheers
Ben

[Bobwirtz]

You have a point or two there; however, these were very rare as you've noticed by the lack of responses. Put up a regular set of metal cap insignia and you'll get 30 responses. My point is that these are so rare and this particular specimen is so ragged, that I would walk away from it as if it were something being sold on eBay. It would have to compare favorably with given references for me to consider it. These are only opinions expressed here, based upon the photos that are provided. And you've only provided ONE, so that is all anybody on this forum can really address. You are certainly welcome to your own opinion on the authentication of this and as long as you're happy with it, then that is all that matters, isn't it?

Bob

[Glenn McInnes]

I like the looks of this eagle.. If it is bad it is a good one.


Glenn

[John Pic]

Im in agreement with Glenn, this one looks better than most and is done very well. The ragged appearance may be from weather exposure. I like that its features are not over exagerated often you see them and they seem too bulky to look good on a cap. Interesting eagle.

[BenVK]

Bob, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else about authenticity, I know better than to do that.

What I'm trying to ascertain is whether it shows signs of being a modern manufactured piece or not. You said that the backing is too big but what about the material it's made from, does it look modern?

I'm just trying to educate myself about bullion pieces.

Here's some more pics.

[BenVK]

..

[SJP]

Very subjective for sure,Seldom seen or photographed but i think yours is original from the scans Ben.Cheers Steve

[John Pic]

Wow another nice rare piece of insignia. Seldom encountered even on forums.

[Johann Anton]

These are very neat pieces, thanks for sharing them. The biggest difference that I can see, (aside from normal style, as these are made by hand, yes?), is that Ben's swas is also done in bullion, where Steve's unissued piece, the swas appears to be silver wire.

[Hohenstaufen]

Here is my bullion hat eagle. It was purchased in a hotel buy in Buffalo, NY back in 1996 from a 42nd Div. Vet. It is in Mint cond. never sewn on a hat. The back side has all of its black paper backing. These eagles are super rare! Thanks, Grant.