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**John Pic** · 01-09-2006, 08:59 AM

If I can buy that hat for $50 please sell it to me, the eagle alone is worth more than $50, The skull at least another $50. So Ill give you $100 for it.

In all seriousness please do elaborate on why you say its only worth $50.

**billbert** · 01-09-2006, 09:16 AM

Ed, Didnt this cap make a brief appearance on EBAY a week or two ago??Looks good from what I see...Billbert

**Ed Hicks** · 01-09-2006, 09:29 AM

Not on ebay that I am aware...recently "out of the woods" in a manner of speaking...I looked at the insignia and really can't see where any metal pins were previously attached-pretty well worn though...I really would like to consider that earlier posting of $50 if it was a serious offer!

Ed

"If not, can you aquire it for the cost of the insignia plus no more than 50 bucks US?

If not, i'd pass.

"

**DougO** · 01-09-2006, 12:10 PM

From the close-up picture of the skull, it looks like there is an imprint (to the upper right) of a metal skull that was previously on the cap. Overall, a very interesting piece.

Doug

**Rich Moran** · 01-09-2006, 12:13 PM

First off, my reasoning is that the insignia has a monetary value, and I am sure all here agree to that.

Second, what value does the visor have once reconstructed?

I ask this in thought of what IS the current asking price for this in pieces?

Lastly, since combining these pieces or reconstruction of the visor, you end up with a piece that is one that has been messed with, in the purist veign of thought.

That being said, if your happy with a reconstructed piece in your collection, then go for it.

I say this because if this were at a show, and this were sitting on a table, that means my offer for the pieces a shown would be no more than what the value of the insignia is plus $50 for the pieces as shown.

I have no problems with what I see, just taking pieces and putting them together might be one persons love or desire, not mine.

**BenVK** · 01-09-2006, 03:41 PM

You'd love this SS cap then Rich!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=126958

Personally, I would jump at the chance of getting my hands on this cap Ed has posted. Horses for courses I suppose but for me, being able to put back together a piece of history is very satisfying. More satisfying than just stripping the insignia off and throwing the rest in a box in the attic anyway. Sure, the monetory value is going to be less than an untouched example when you come to sell it on but that's not the point.

If you had an original Ferrari Dino in boxes in the garage, would you sell it for the price of the parts or would you restore it and then sell it?

**phild** · 01-09-2006, 07:27 PM

The eagle almost looks like a flatwire type, is it? It is for sure a sleeve eagle. I think the owner has already stated that the insignia has been recently appliedand I think that the cap, if restored, would benifit from proper insignia. The skull application looks about as good as it gets for hand applied bevo on a black velvet cap band. To my knowledge these were not normally machine applied to these type caps and based on period photos the cloth insignia was the exception rather than the rule when it came to SS crushers.

I think that this hat was a crusher rather than a peaked cap due to the size of the hat top. Generally old style field caps were slightly smaller in proportion (cap tops) than the WWII peak caps, especially officers peak caps. I would also see if there is any evidence of chin cords being attached at any time. This is not 100% as some real crushers had chin cords period attached...I guess by the wearer.

The bill or visor appears to me to be of the pressed paper variety, like the NCO one on the spine of Beaver's 3 volumes. I can not tell if this one has the raised ridge impressed where it attaches to the hat or not. I prefer the ones that do not.

I see re-attaching this visor as simply a restoration rather than "messing" with the cap. If it is properly done and the work disclosed, I see no problem. I wonder if there are 50 ( or even 25) genuine SS officers velvet band crusher style caps that exist in the world. I have seen maybe 5 to 10 in 30+ years and that counts some of the larger U.S. SS collections, museums, reference books and a few questionable examples that I was just not sure of.

I think that this cap well worth properly and correctly restoring. Do only the minimum and that means re-attachement of the visor and adding the correct insignia...assuming that one or both existing items that are on the cap are post war applied and not of the type (cloth vs. metal) that were worn on the cap during the war.

**Lloyd I.** · 01-09-2006, 07:30 PM

I'd buy it. I dont mind pieces, pardon the pun, like this at all.

**Ed Hicks** · 01-09-2006, 08:36 PM

The eagle almost looks like a flatwire type, is it? Yes it is

**Ed Hicks** · 01-09-2006, 08:45 PM

I think the owner has already stated that the insignia has been recently applied and...Insignia was on the visor when recent owner originally purchased it from WW2 veteran (story given to me by a man who doesn't embellish-no reason to doubt him, but I do not buy the story when making a purchase)...Insignia appears to have been on there since the war (pick one if you are a non believer) with no signs of tampering, just old and well worn from age and bad luck.

**phild** · 01-09-2006, 10:16 PM

Ed, Based on the circumstances that you describe in obtaining the cap and if the age of the thread checked out, I would have no problem accepting that insignia as period applied.

As I said before, the skull application is as good as it gets on these type caps. As to the eagle, I have seen sleeve eagles used on crushers in period photos. It would be easy to understand if one considers a metal eagle breaking off and getting lost and thus having the officer apply a slavaged sleeve eagle from an old trashed tunic.

It would cost you close to 2k just to replace that insignia in todays market and it might take you a year to find the flatwire sleeve eagle to boot.

I think that you have a very desirable cap there.

**Rich Moran** · 01-10-2006, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by BenVK

You'd love this SS cap then Rich!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=126958

Personally, I would jump at the chance of getting my hands on this cap Ed has posted. Horses for courses I suppose but for me, being able to put back together a piece of history is very satisfying. More satisfying than just stripping the insignia off and throwing the rest in a box in the attic anyway. Sure, the monetory value is going to be less than an untouched example when you come to sell it on but that's not the point.

If you had an original Ferrari Dino in boxes in the garage, would you sell it for the price of the parts or would you restore it and then sell it?

Ben did a great job with that visor, and then I saw it on E-Stand, and from there I am not sure where it went.

Like I said before, I see no problem with taking the parts and putting it together, but its not for me, and that is what collecting is all about, choosing what one wants in their collections.

By the way, if I had a Ferrari Dino in parts, I quite possibly could make more with it in parts sales, and the savings of re-assembly and aquiring the parts should the needed bits be out of spec could cause a new level of outflow of cash that could cause a project to cost more than a complete vehicle. I say could, only.

As th esaying goes, it is how bad the want of one individual is, to pay for the get.

In the same pattern of thought however, I did restoration to Harley Davidson motorcycles years ago, but the difference in things that bolt together is your not piercing the metal to get the restoration completed, unless the project is in that bad of condition, that more than wrenching is required to complete the project.

I passed on many basket cases because of issues with broken tabs for motor mounts to cracked sheet metal etc, it just was not worth my time then to do all the work, when there were other examples out there requiring less time to get back into as close as OEM as possible.

For those instances where one lot of parts come up for sale, but not look to be worht the time, and then having another show up at the back door, marrying the two lots together can prove to be of worth, as by then, there are left overs to trade, sell, or to give friends who are in need of something to complete their project.

In that sense, things mechanical are a very distant cousin to things of cloth.

For the insignia on the cap, your going to pay a hefty sum alone as pointed out.

So was the cost of this in this condition at over 2K?

No need to answer, but to me that is a hefty price to pay for a visor in this condition.

Again, that is me and my idea about all of this.

If this were one a only a very few, the purchase would make sense, but I think I would leave it the way it is for display alone, and no more.

Gee, you guys and I are like standing at the edge of
the sellers table at the show, me holding this item, and you guys saying go for it, you CAN do it!!!

Good old peer pressure!!

**BenVK** · 01-11-2006, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by Rich Moran

Ben did a great job with that visor, and then I saw it on E-Stand, and from there I am not sure where it went.

Thanks for the complement Rich!

I've still got the cap but it will be back on the e-stand very soon. Trying to sell before Christmas wasn't very productive. I've valued it at around half the price of a near mint untouched example I sold last year i.e. $2,100.

I would be interested to hear what you guys think of that, fair or not?

As with the cap Ed posted, it's difficult to judge the value of ones that need restoring or have been restored.

Cheers
Ben

**DougO** · 01-11-2006, 06:03 AM

Ben,

I think you did a great job on repairing that cap. The price is fair, but many who can afford a few grand for a visor cap can also afford to go up to $4k for an untouched one. But, considering the value of the insignia and the chincord alone, the price seems very fair.

Doug

**BenVK** · 01-11-2006, 06:41 AM

Thanks Doug,

Yes, I would agree with that completely. Most would prefer to pay the extra for an untouched example. However, the chance to get any original ss item for well below the market rate is a rare occurrence. Not all of us have got pots of cash to spend on this hobby. I would love to buy Ed's cap but I'm sure I couldn't afford it even in this condition!!

Cheers
Ben

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