i picked up this plate and found it on here along with a allach site but i was talking to a friend and he says there are letters missing and poor verbage.
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the back -
There is not just one letter missing, maybe he needs some german language course before to state such thing.Comment
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he said poor verbage use toComment
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Looks okay to me. This is called a Julfest plate, designed on behalf of Oswald Pohl. I can't speak to whether it is proper German or not, but the script on yours appears as it did on other originals.Originally posted by Anthony Evans
There are some of these plates out there (or to be precise, at least ONE plate) that is missing the "C" in the word "Wunsche" on the reverse, but this doesn't seem to be the case here. See link for discussion:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=ss+plateComment
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i know the plate your talking about, he also said oswald pohl would never authorize a playe like thisComment
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Originally posted by Anthony Evans
The Julfest was an anti-Christian rite. This quote from Hebbel makes Christian allusions. I assume someone took an existing piece of porcelain and Nazified it, and not especially well, actually. A stinker in my opinion. If the fakers are going to do this sort of thing, they better get their liturgy and theology right, actually. The lettering on the SS side also looks odd to me, too. Allach had a bad reputation, but this is even worse.Comment
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The plate is 100% correct in every respect.
But most likely not Allach even though sometime attributed to them.
JComment
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I just looked at the link, since that time I found a document that I cannot put my fingers on at the moment.
It was written to The Economic office in 43 or 44 I believe and states combined losses for Allach and Bohemia in the range if I remember of 10,000 RM's due to labor shortages. All commercial Juhlfest plates were done by transfer including Allach, but this one is unmarked. There is also reference in the Pohl interrogations to both companies. The 44 presentation is Allach, but not this plate. Not in my opinion anyway.
But it is a link that connects both companies as Reich economic concerns, take the year, the labor shortage's and Pohl's wife and I think you have a Bohemia plate.
The poem or wording I am not sure what the native tongue was, but it was taken from The Consecration of Night by Hebbel as stated above by Mr. Abenheim, maybe something got lost in the translation. Christian allusion's I dont feel are relevent as when translated it comes off as faith and could be applied easily to the period, allthough it does mention the lord. Again in my opinion as even a Pagan ritual could imply the same.
Anyway, the plate is correct.Last edited by Jarrid Marsh; 01-02-2006, 10:18 AM.Comment
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Meine Frage
My point is the reference to the Lord, i.e. Herr, which strikes me as not in keeping with the teutonic, Nordic aspects of this hocus-pocus. Also, I am not translating it, at all, but reading it in German, which is the only data that strike me as relevant. Do you have other examples of this kind of thing for this so-called Julfest? This sort of verbiage must be in the SS Leithefte as well as the reprinted documents on SS ceremony, family life, usw. There is an excellent new book in German on the Rasse- und Siedelungshauptamt, which has all possible citations. Surely you're right about the porcelain works and its relation to Oswald Pohl (there are also excellent works out on this score, as well, i.e. Kaienburg, Schulte, and Naasner.) The last of these is a document prepared by the WVHA defendants at Nuremberg on how the various SS economic enterprises fit into the whole, while the preceding two works are scholarly treatments of the SSWVHA in which the porcelain works are mentioned in detail. The SS had a large number of companies and firms it bought up in Bohemia/Moravia to do various kinds of things, so porcelain works beyond Allach make perfect sense, actually. But the issue is a theological one, I think.Originally posted by Jarrid Marsh
I own a number of SS Leithefte, and very, very infrequently is there the slightest mention of God, in some cases in Mein Kampf quotes, but this use of "the Lord" in this instance strikes me as odd, although the use of German poetry is quite normal among the Nazis and the SS in particular, to be sure. Rather, the Leithefte are full of Nordic references, prissy observations about family life and eugenics (Rassenkunde) as well as the requisite Nazi racist screed &c.
Someone would do well to post some actual examples of this kind of thing. Does anyone know if Hebbel was in the Nazi literary canon? The man to look at on this score is Adolf Bartels, of course, die Geschichte der dt. Literatur.Last edited by Donald Abenheim; 01-02-2006, 12:08 PM.Comment
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Mr. Abenheim,
I certainly dont want to get into a theological debate, as I would not be much competetion for you I am afraid, all I can do is apply logic to a degree and go back and look at some of these other piece's. I really never had this question posed to me and I cant read German.
That being said, although the SS was more of a non-Christian organization, Catholocism was still alive to a degree, Being that Pohl had such broad power I would imagine he could do as he pleased. If you look at some of the presentation's such as the Allach 44, it's a mother's plate more than a Juhlfest plate.
I am certainly at a disadvantage in the analysis of the language, Hell he might of liked the poem, or being that his wife was a higher up at Bohemia maybe she had something to do with it.
I can only argue that since there were labor issues at this time, Allach managed to do a presentation plate, however the commercial plates far out number them, this being the case, it would make sense since both companies were under the Economic concern, that a shift of the commercial plate to Bohemia for completion would not be out of the question.
Also since they did manage to do a 44 presentation, it would stand to reason that they did a commercial, as they did for the prior years. Since no other variant has ever been observed with that date in a commercial version by Allach, that this is in fact the 44 commercial Juhlfest.
The context of the poem could easily be applied to the war and keeping up the spirit in this particulary difficult time.
"So that the tired strength can once more feel itself refreshing" as well as "And the threads which have been broken he is mending all again" The second in reference to the Lord.
Allthough the SS were heavy into Nordic or Pagan rituals, this was a commercial plate for the masses, which was really based in Christianity or Catholocism, and the 44 presentation in not Pagan either.
I would say there was a shift, and this commercial plate is the only by Pohl himself.
I can give you the Inscriptions to all of these piece's if you like, The 44 Presentation is a Mothers Cross design of 7 crosse's and the inscription read's "Der Mutter Und Helden Ist Unser Der Sieg" and refers again to victory with no Pagan symbols or conotation's.
Now im lost, as I am not sure what you are seeing that I am not. And most all of these plates are marked Juhlfest.
JarridComment
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Sound analysis
Thanks for your essay, which has great merit and makes many sound, judicious points. I am not a theologian, but a professional historian with an interest in SS ideology, such as it is, as well as I can and do read German, rather too much for my own good. A colleague of mine in Austria and I are writing on this very theme of the relationship of ethics, SS ideas, and military ideals, which has a lot to say about traditional ethical and religious systems and the Nazi assault on same in the name of race, social darwinism, and a cult of violence. In this, the SS was an anti-Christian organization in a regime that had a mixed relationship with the church. The SS embodied an extreme form of this anit-Christianity, as you can see from reading the pages of Schwarzes Korps or the other programmatic writings of Dieter Schwarz, who was, in fact, the nom de plume of the RFSS and its ideologues. Do read Heydrich's programmatic tract, Wandlungen unseres Kampfes from 1936 on this score. He has as much nasty to say about Christianity as he does about Jews, in fact. You are right that Pohl had a great deal of influence in his part of the SS and surely this is an important point, and maybe he was able to choose a literary reference that varied from the dictates of the the most Nordic hocus-pocus of the regime visible in such figures as Darre and the like or even Himmler himself. However, if you look at this sort of thing in an easy source, the Leithefte, there is a lot of Nordic polytheistic kind of references. However, I do think Hebbel was on the approved list of German literary figures. In any case, this reference to the "Lord" seems a lot more specific to me than the murky allusions to a God. If you are interested in politics and religion in modern Germany, I can recommend a long reading list. My skepticism is meant in a collegial way, and derives from my experience of the high number of fakes found in all these sorts of things, as well as the fact that modern day Czechia is a work house of fakery in its most sublime form. Thank you for the enlightening response and happy new year, either with Nordic Gods or the monotheistic one of the Judeo-Christian tradition.Last edited by Donald Abenheim; 01-02-2006, 12:39 PM.Comment
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In regard's to being in the literary cannon I would yes he was, in his words as they tend to follow the Germanic mindset of the art's and culture.
This is an interesting tidbit I did not know:
He wrote the little epic Mutter und Kind, intended to show that the relation of parent and child is the essential factor which makes the quality of happiness among all classes and under all conditions equal. Long before this Hebbel had become famous. German sovereigns bestowed decorations upon him; and in the foreign capitals he was f******234;ted as the greatest of living German dramatists. From the grand-duke of Saxe-Weimar he received a flattering invitation to take up his residence at Weimar, where several of his plays were first performed. He remained, however, at Vienna until his death on the 13th of December 1863.
Mutter Und Kind is the name taken for the title of 2 Allach piece's and you can see where he would have appeal, this could also be applied to the dedication of the 44 presentation in Honor of Mother's being hero's.
<O
Last edited by Jarrid Marsh; 01-02-2006, 12:56 PM.Comment
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Mr. Abenheim,
Well you forced me to think
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The argument of Catholcism or Christianity is one that plays out in the subject era, more than any other I can think of. The references in Mein Kamph obviously conflicted with the main ideas of the book itself. As Hitler himself had conflicting view's, he considered himself a Catholic, but it was in the way of a plan of Social Darwinism, so he had no choice but to attack the church.
It appear's maybe some of the hierarchy in the end, sought to revert back to faith.
Happy Holiday's!Last edited by Jarrid Marsh; 01-02-2006, 12:49 PM.Comment
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