plate help

[Donald Abenheim]

secular religion

Mr. Abenheim,

Well you forced me to think .

The argument of Catholcism or Christianity is one that plays out in the subject era, more than any other I can think of. The references in Mein Kamph obviously conflicted with the main ideas of the book itself. As Hitler himself had conflicting view's, he considered himself a Catholic, but it was in the way of a plan of Social Darwinism, so he had no choice but to attack the church.

It appear's maybe some of the hierarchy in the end, sought to revert back to faith.

Happy Holiday's!

Dear Colleague, the history of politics and religion in Germany in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries is central to the rise of national socialism and the core ideas of a man like Hitler, actually. If you provide me with your coordinates, I can give you much, fruitful further reading on this subject. One place to begin is with George Mosse, whose work you can find in amazon or advanced book exchange. The books on religion and national socialism fill shelf upon shelf. The issue is one of how secular, nationalist forces in the course of the 19th century make the belief in nation based on race into a religion itself (cf. Mein Kampf and all its antecedents...) and the way in which the Nazis go after established sectors of society (ie. the church) and force them to accept the social darwinist ideals of race in their most extreme forms, which breaks down a lot of judeo-Christian values, to be sure. Nation, Volk and Race become gods themselves, and in the SS, the Nordic antecedents are plainly conceived as an assault on bourgeois and dynastic society as they have existed for the past two centuries in central Europe. There are ideas from the French Revolution, as well as from the latter part of the 19th century when the Prussian-German state tries to limit the worldly power of the church. This process did not work all the time, nor everywhere. But read the new book on Alfred Rosenberg, as well as the excellent book in German on the failed priest who became the head of anti-Catholic activities in the RSHA. I shall add the citation later. Sapere aude.

[Anthony Evans]

pohl wrote a book credo: my way to god. and was a member of the catholic church till '51

[Anthony Evans]

any one have his rank bio?

[Jarrid Marsh]

I tried to pull one from the web a few time's but to no avail.

He was in control of the entire flow of funds through the Reich right down to gold filling's. Not a great resume to be honest. I have documents on him and he was up there on top. I would actually have to refresh his record in my mind.

Your friend is mistaken, that is the 1944 Juhlfest plate with dedication from Pohl, its really common knowledge, and I neglected to mention that one with a period or at least partial period tag is in a friends collection.

They are also owned by every top dealer I know, and they sit in their collection's as does mine. Not a rare piece.

I see Mr. Abenheims point in regard's to the reference to the Lord, and understand his line of thinking, but I have to say, that unless someone hits this with a bombshell revelation, it is without a doubt correct and of the same style of transfer as an Allach commercial of previous year's. The difference is in the porcelain itself.

[Mr. Scratch]

The Julfest was an anti-Christian rite. This quote from Hebbel makes Christian allusions. I assume someone took an existing piece of porcelain and Nazified it, and not especially well, actually. A stinker in my opinion. If the fakers are going to do this sort of thing, they better get their liturgy and theology right, actually. The lettering on the SS side also looks odd to me, too. Allach had a bad reputation, but this is even worse.

Julfest wasn't so much an "anti-Christian" rite, as it was an attempt to paganize (or more precisely, re-paganize) the Christmas holiday. It wasn't chisled in stone that all SS men had to make a hard break with Christmas, or that people couldn't celebrate both.

There were a number of high ranking SS officers who remained outspoken Christians in spite of the harsh anti-Christian sentiments of the SS structure as a whole. And while SS material intended for circulation within the SS generally reflected a strong pagan influence, they were not at all reluctant to adopt a veneer of Christianity when it came to items intended for public consumption. This was especially true in matters related to recruiting Christians (particularly non-Germans) into a war against bolshevism, but occasionally also when it came to simple matters of public relations with Germans themselves. Given that this plate was a for-profit commercial item intended to appeal to common (Christian) Germans, and given the desperation with which many must have sought some sort of faith in 1944, I don't find this script to be unlikely. Also keep in mind that even the immediate families of most SS men were Christians, as can be seen in the Christian imagery and sentiments found on the death cards of the fallen. These plates were intended for just such people.

On the contrary, were it fake, I would expect it to be overloaded with all sorts of Paganish malarkey, with big runes, swastikas, skulls and vikings all over the place. Take the garishness of fake SS rings as your guide on this one. These plates, which are fairly subtle and betray no obvious Nazi sentiments on their face, are obviously NOT something that was intended to catch the eye of someone who is dazzled by SS regalia, as most fantasy SS items are.

[Jarrid Marsh]

Dear Colleague, the history of politics and religion in Germany in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries is central to the rise of national socialism and the core ideas of a man like Hitler, actually. If you provide me with your coordinates, I can give you much, fruitful further reading on this subject. One place to begin is with George Mosse, whose work you can find in amazon or advanced book exchange. The books on religion and national socialism fill shelf upon shelf. The issue is one of how secular, nationalist forces in the course of the 19th century make the belief in nation based on race into a religion itself (cf. Mein Kampf and all its antecedents...) and the way in which the Nazis go after established sectors of society (ie. the church) and force them to accept the social darwinist ideals of race in their most extreme forms, which breaks down a lot of judeo-Christian values, to be sure. Nation, Volk and Race become gods themselves, and in the SS, the Nordic antecedents are plainly conceived as an assault on bourgeois and dynastic society as they have existed for the past two centuries in central Europe. There are ideas from the French Revolution, as well as from the latter part of the 19th century when the Prussian-German state tries to limit the worldly power of the church. This process did not work all the time, nor everywhere. But read the new book on Alfred Rosenberg, as well as the excellent book in German on the failed priest who became the head of anti-Catholic activities in the RSHA. I shall add the citation later. Sapere aude.

Mr. Abenheim,

Thank you for the correspondance and list of information and you have given me food for thought, and to be honest had me scrambling for a bit there as well.

Once in a great while you run into men from other centuries I call them "Old School" they somehow survive the propoganda and news of the world, and navigate thier way and pass on their wisdom to their kin, from generation to generation. And although they slip and slide in some cases, their cynicism or the lessons learned seem to bring them back to their foundation.

Maybe Mr. Pohl was old school, his choice of poetry would lead me to believe he may have been just that.

Thank you,

J

[Anthony Evans]

can some one translate the plate for me, i dont speak alot of german yet

[Donald Abenheim]

weitere Gedanken

Julfest wasn't so much an "anti-Christian" rite, as it was an attempt to paganize (or more precisely, re-paganize) the Christmas holiday. It wasn't chisled in stone that all SS men had to make a hard break with Christmas, or that people couldn't celebrate both.

There were a number of high ranking SS officers who remained outspoken Christians in spite of the harsh anti-Christian sentiments of the SS structure as a whole. And while SS material intended for circulation within the SS generally reflected a strong pagan influence, they were not at all reluctant to adopt a veneer of Christianity when it came to items intended for public consumption. This was especially true in matters related to recruiting Christians (particularly non-Germans) into a war against bolshevism, but occasionally also when it came to simple matters of public relations with Germans themselves. Given that this plate was a for-profit commercial item intended to appeal to common (Christian) Germans, and given the desperation with which many must have sought some sort of faith in 1944, I don't find this script to be unlikely. Also keep in mind that even the immediate families of most SS men were Christians, as can be seen in the Christian imagery and sentiments found on the death cards of the fallen. These plates were intended for just such people.

On the contrary, were it fake, I would expect it to be overloaded with all sorts of Paganish malarkey, with big runes, swastikas, skulls and vikings all over the place. Take the garishness of fake SS rings as your guide on this one. These plates, which are fairly subtle and betray no obvious Nazi sentiments on their face, are obviously NOT something that was intended to catch the eye of someone who is dazzled by SS regalia, as most fantasy SS items are.

I find much merit in the above, but one would not want to neglect the fact that SS members were generally compelled to leave the church, which hardly strikes me as having been as neutral on this score as the above suggests. A simple overview of this matter is contained in Bernd Wegner's book on the Waffen SS in the chapter on ideology. Generally the Nazis had to trim their sails to the realities of society in Germany, in some cases retreating from the anti-Christian goals of the regime, when, resistance was strong. The instance of removing crucifixes from various Bavarian school rooms, I believe comes to mind. However, if you read Schwarzes Korps and the Leithefte, as I do (??!!) then the facts of anti-Christianity are pretty overwhelming. Think also of the lead role of the SS in the T4 program (i.e. such places as Hademar...) and the response of the church in that dimension. I will leave euthanasia to theologians and observant lay people better informed on these matters than am I. The Catholic Church also objected rather alot to the Nazi idea of race, in fact, as going against doctrine.

There are various biographies of Pohl and his organization in German of great merit. I cannot agree that he was "old school." He was a technocrat, and organizer and a sort of criminal entrepeneur in tycoon fashion, who was perhaps in certain superficial aspects of the regime less radical than some. However, the extermination camp systme increasingly fell under his control as part of the slave labor and concentration camp system, and I cannot detect any moderation in that central dimension of his biography. However, these works on him are excellent, and if you send me your coordinates, I shall send the titles or post them here later. The biographies of the 2d tier SS leaders are quite interesting and receive too little attention in English. On Pohl, see: Schulte, Zwangsarbeit un Vernichtung (Paderborn/Muenchen, 2001); Kaienburg, die Wirtschaft d. SS (Berlin 2003); Smelser et al eds. Die SS Elite Unter dem Totenkopf (Paderborn/Muenchen, 200); Allen, The Business of Genocide (Chapel Hill, 2002). Allen covers certain of the material as in the German works, but the latter are really very comprehensive and I learned a lot from them of special merit. Kaienburg has a brillian discussion of the textile enterprises in the concentration camp system.

There is also an excellent monograph ( I note above..) on the very comprehensive anti-Christian and anti-Catholic efforts in the SD and RSHA which has recently come out in Germany and based on SS archives that ended up in Moscow. It is Dierker, Himmlers Glaubenskrieger: der SD d. SS und seine Religionspolitik, '33-'41 (Padernborn/Muenchen, 2002). My response above was based on my reading of this monograph, actually as well as my work on this with my colleagues in Europe who have a professional interest in all of this from a theological and historical point of view. Anti-Catholicism had been a central tenet of certain aspects of German politics from the time of the foundation of the II Reich in 1871 (der Kulturkampf) and the Nazis extended aspects of this, while at the same time there were areas of cooperation, especially in the dimension of anti-Communism. The regime also persecuted such groups as 7th Day Adventists with great zeal, for instance. (Bibelforscher)

[Jarrid Marsh]

can some one translate the plate for me, i dont speak alot of german yet

The translation as per Oliver's book on Allach is as follows:

From All the stars, flows a glorious blessing, so that tired strength can once more feel itself refreshing.

Out of the darkness moves the Lord, as far as he can,
And the threads which have been broken he is mending all again.

I dont know if that is exact as far as German go's but it is quite nice as is the plate.

[Jarrid Marsh]

I find much merit in the above, but one would not want to neglect the fact that SS members were generally compelled to leave the church, which hardly strikes me as having been as neutral on this score as the above suggests. A simple overview of this matter is contained in Bernd Wegner's book on the Waffen SS in the chapter on ideology. Generally the Nazis had to trim their sails to the realities of society in Germany, in some cases retreating from the anti-Christian goals of the regime, when, resistance was strong. The instance of removing crucifixes from various Bavarian school rooms, I believe comes to mind. However, if you read Schwarzes Korps and the Leithefte, as I do (??!!) then the facts of anti-Christianity are pretty overwhelming. Think also of the lead role of the SS in the T4 program (i.e. such places as Hademar...) and the response of the church in that dimension. I will leave euthanasia to theologians and observant lay people better informed on these matters than am I. The Catholic Church also objected rather alot to the Nazi idea of race, in fact, as going against doctrine.

There are various biographies of Pohl and his organization in German of great merit. I cannot agree that he was "old school." He was a technocrat, and organizer and a sort of criminal entrepeneur in tycoon fashion, who was perhaps in certain superficial aspects of the regime less radical than some. However, the extermination camp systme increasingly fell under his control as part of the slave labor and concentration camp system, and I cannot detect any moderation in that central dimension of his biography. However, these works on him are excellent, and if you send me your coordinates, I shall send the titles or post them here later. The biographies of the 2d tier SS leaders are quite interesting and receive too little attention in English. On Pohl, see: Schulte, Zwangsarbeit un Vernichtung (Paderborn/Muenchen, 2001); Kaienburg, die Wirtschaft d. SS (Berlin 2003); Smelser et al eds. Die SS Elite Unter dem Totenkopf (Paderborn/Muenchen, 200); Allen, The Business of Genocide (Chapel Hill, 2002). Allen covers certain of the material as in the German works, but the latter are really very comprehensive and I learned a lot from them of special merit. Kaienburg has a brillian discussion of the textile enterprises in the concentration camp system.

There is also an excellent monograph ( I note above..) on the very comprehensive anti-Christian and anti-Catholic efforts in the SD and RSHA which has recently come out in Germany and based on SS archives that ended up in Moscow. It is Dierker, Himmlers Glaubenskrieger: der SD d. SS und seine Religionspolitik, '33-'41 (Padernborn/Muenchen, 2002). My response above was based on my reading of this monograph, actually as well as my work on this with my colleagues in Europe who have a professional interest in all of this from a theological and historical point of view. Anti-Catholicism had been a central tenet of certain aspects of German politics from the time of the foundation of the II Reich in 1871 (der Kulturkampf) and the Nazis extended aspects of this, while at the same time there were areas of cooperation, especially in the dimension of anti-Communism. The regime also persecuted such groups as 7th Day Adventists with great zeal, for instance. (Bibelforscher)

Mr. Abenheim,

You certainly bring a lot to the table, and I was never able to find a lot of info on Pohl himself, but what I did find would lead one to the same conclusion. I think my "Old School" analogy was at best misdirected. In reality he is what we here in the State's would call a "Bad Ass".

Anyway, something new to think about as I never quite looked at the item that started this topic with such scrutiny, I guess it would be best to just simplify it as a commercial piece.

Interesting topic.

Thank you Sir,

J

[Donald Abenheim]

Fragen auf Fragen

Mr. Abenheim,

You certainly bring a lot to the table, and I was never able to find a lot of info on Pohl himself, but what I did find would lead one to the same conclusion. I think my "Old School" analogy was at best misdirected. In reality he is what we here in the State's would call a "Bad Ass".

Anyway, something new to think about as I never quite looked at the item that started this topic with such scrutiny, I guess it would be best to just simplify it as a commercial piece.

Interesting topic.

Thank you Sir,

J

Dear Colleague, thanks for the above. Pohl was an organizational genius of great skill, and the manner in which the SS became a kind of capitalist/extermination conglomerate (what a '70s term--I show my age...) is as remarkable as the fighting power of the order of battle units. His parallels have existed in other societies in various times. In a flattering way, you could compare him, somewhat to Wallenstein in the 30 Years War, as an entrepeneur of war and conquest---but I think Pohl's real comparisons are to be found in post communist regimes where figures in government bag state enterprises and privatize them &c. Or like Milo Minderbinder in Catch 22, but that does not do Pohl justice at all in his role in the genocide. Whatever personal beliefs and residual affinity for traditional religion this man might have had, especially after the Nuremberg trials, &c., his actions between 1933 and 1945 were in the realm of smash and grab (national socialism did a lot of this, in fact, let us be frank...); nor did he uphold today's much vaunted family values, as he was a polygamist like so many of the other great men of the regime---but unlike the Fuehrer.

The Dierker volume makes pretty clear, in fact, how anti-Christian the SS was. I was re-reading it after this discussion began, in the midst of my post-Danubian jet lag. The SD had the long range strategic goal of the political extinction of Christianity as a social and political force in Germany, and in this followed the lead of Heydrich and Himmler, as well as Bormann and Goebbels quite plainly. The volume goes into full detail on this score. I shall have to find something in English that is of like scholarship and value. In particular, the SD played an important role in breaking the back of the Catholic Church in the so-called Ostmark (i.e. Austria) in the wake of the defeat of the Schuschnigg regime (Austrofascist) after March 1938. This action had a blow back effect in the Altreich, in fact, and led to various little pogroms against the Church that, in a sense, were not unlike the larger action against the Jews in November of that year. All of this bears keeping in mind as we run the risk of anachronism in all this stuff. At the same time, to be sure, in the wake of defeat a lot of people turned to Christianity on a new basis, i.e. Christich demokratische Union, or its Bavarian counterpart. Such was a general response in western and central Europe to the disaster of the first half of the 20th century. Sapere aude.

[torstenbel]

i picked up this plate and found it on here along with a allach site but i was talking to a friend and he says there are letters missing and poor verbage.

I believe this plate to be original and there is nothing wrong that I can see with the letters or the language used...do not forget that this is a recitation of a poem by Hebbel from the middle of the 19th century and language changed a lot in Germany over the centuries...would anyone know what kind of value to attach to a plate like this?? Cheers, Torsten.

[Capt. R]

Dr. Abenheim

This was a great thread and an example of good debate on the forum - no one got upset with others expressing their own opinions. Michael F. had told me about Dr. Abenheim, is he still out there??? His last post was in 2006.

What a great thread of scholarly interest. We need more like this.

[Seiler]

Abenheim posted on several sites moving as some failed.
I believe I recognise the "style" from another Forum under
the name "Friedrich Berthold" on matters SS.Have a hunt around.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

[Seiler]

PS,Silly me...forgot this..
Try "warrelics.eu/forum" or similar
Seiler