SS Totenkopf Officers Tunic

[Gary Wood]

What's Latin for "piece of shyte"?

Seriously, the proliferation of older fakes in collections is a huge problem, we have looked to buy several "old" collections lately and they have been ripe with fakes, which puts us in an odd position to have to tell the collector (or their family) that their fathers most prized tunic was completely bogus (or at least messed with). It makes us seem like we are trying to pull the wool over thier eyes, when we can then only offer them part of what they thought would be a huge amount of money. In one case I told the guy I just wasn't intersested at all, he was offended and sent it all to an auction, where the local uninformed masses paid premium prices for reproduction crap....

Jerry,
While knowledge changes with time as collecting is always a learning process, there are few who claim they know everything and we know a lot more this year than we did last year and no doubt we will repeat that next year, but remember what it was like in the 70's, very little reference books of quality, list's were just that list's of items, no Internet, no computers, the good old days!
cheers
Gary

[Mr.Jerry D]

I agree Gary,
I found out when I started seriuosly collecting in the late 80s, that the best thing to do was find some people who knew what they were talking about and learn as much as I could from them.

The proliferation of knowledge that is out there now is also a double edge sword. I have people bringing items into my shop that have spent 30 minutes on the internet and know more about the thing than I do.

I am greatful to this forum. as I still learn somthing new every day!

[DonC]

I believe this is either a reworked Forestry or Bundesgrenschutz EM/NCO tunic. I have seen several lately, all badged for W-SS, and as a novice collector got taken by one of these dressed up as SS/SD many moons ago. Fortunately the eagle and collar tabs were original, so I did not get completely hosed.

I think it is interesting that while many of us have been waiting for "older" collections to come on the market, they are sometimes populated simply by "older" fakes...

Don

[John Pic]

I was sent a tunic from an older collection for consideration and was thoroughly disapointed not to mention I ticked the owner off with my opinion and return of the item.
As I said in another thread my first SS officer tunic bought back in the 70s had a Bigfoot eagle on it which I just noticed in a picture the other day.The knowledge of all the worlds collectors old and new combined is a great tool.

[revi]

Well spoken, there are so many old en new "convincing" fakes around that the originals are sometimes considered fake, as I've noticed.
One just must have experienced fellowcollectors for an opinion and obtain knowledge.
As this topic opens with the tunic with Totenkopf Verb******228;nde collar tabs on it I do have a question if I may about the TV officer collartabs and especially about the material the Totenkopf was embroided on.
I am not familiar with the Totenkopf collar tabs nor with the base material of the tabs. In reference books I sofar found (and have seen) black wool, gabardine and a woven (cotton?) material of which I forgot the name.
Do one of you forummembers know if black velvet was used for TV officers tabs? And if so, is this connected to a period (pre war, early war, etc.)?
Thanks in advance, Seth.

[Donald Abenheim]

Abzeichentuch

In my experience of black SS uniforms of the era 1933-1940 or so, the collar patches for ranks below Standartenfuehrer are made from a soft wool, which I believe is 100% in content (versus the Grundtuch of many of the uniforms themselves...) The feel of said wool is quite distinctive, in fact, which is an assertion that does one little good in reading these lines. In the Schlicht/Angolia and Schlicht/Kraus books there is much description of the relative textile contents of various pieces of regalia, and the Spiegeltuch in the era 'til about the outbreak of war is 100% wool. I am sure the Herstellungvorschriften d. RZM contain some statement on this score. The Beaver books contain material on the textile composition of various articles of clothing, in which, granted the dictates of the wartime economy as of 1 9 3 6 (Four Year Plan) virigin wool was mixed with recycled and synthetic fibers of the era. I do not believe such operated in the era 1935-1940 in which the collar patches in question were produced. As concerns the intervention of my Oregonian colleague, the state of knowledge advances each day, and I have seen material recently that I never dreamed possible, as well as have seen documents, &c. that were also impossible or improbable to secure in the 1960s and 1970s, when I had little means &c. The fakery of NS material began during the III. Reich, or even before, actually. The results of this effort have accumulated like toxic waste. However, there is some merit in finding old collections, all the same, despite their pitfalls. This enterprise will damn the fainthearted and those with weak powers of observation and the capacity to master the riddles, enigmas, puzzles, and chimaeras of the past.

[revi]

Mr. Abenheim, thank you for your explanation, every day is a lesson and one can never stop learning.
The collar tabs I mentioned is a set of Politische Bereitschaft ones (SS3), Standarte Nr.3 / Oberabschnitt Mitte (see also Cloth insignia/ Angolia page 143.).
The thread of the silver/alu wire lighted up under "blacklight", so I stayed happily away from it, but I did notice the material on which the SS3 was sewn was black velvet.
Velvet ofcourse is a very thin and easily damaged material to sew on, not practical and I hadn't seen velvet being used on (Totenkopf) sewntabs as a base material up till then, with the exception of a totally black (railway?) tab.
So I wondered if this was used on SS/Totenkopf collar tabs or not.
I think I know what you mean with the softwool you described, if I'm right it has the "shine" of velvet, but very shortnapped and dense, the base material (weave) making the wool itself a bid thicker than the normal wool used on these tabs.