Originally posted by fjcollector
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At Christmas time, all things are possible...
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Early Christmas Present
HI FJ Collector,
Here is my early Christmans present to you. Save your money and run from this tunic. I purchased it around two yours ago and it stayed in my collection for around a year. I am a avid SS cloth collector, but this was one of my first attemps at buying a SS tunic. I took it to the SOS a year ago and showed it to several of the most advanced tunic collectors in the US and amazingly enough, they both came up with the exact same conclusion.
The collar tabs, arm eagle, and shoulderboards are 100% original. The pips on the boards and collar tabs are 100% questionable as is the entire tunic. When a bright light was slid inside the lining, there is a stitch outine of a Army eagle on the chest.
I contacted Mr Winkler about returning the tunic and he returned it, but he also kept 40% of my money to the tune of $2600. I thought this was a little heavy and have never been happy about this transaction. In fact he banned me from his website after this transaction. He and I have have yet to settle this deal in person and the time will come. So it goes to show you. Buyer beware and you can find a better, more honest people to spend your hard earned money with. Please learn from my mistake. Caveat Emptor-Buyer Beware!!!!!!Last edited by Paul Carter; 12-23-2005, 03:32 PM.Comment
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The man is 110% seller of fakes. The same thing happened to me, regarding SS Visor he sold to me, and he also kept some of the money. Still, one day will will meet and i will remind him!Last edited by daz181; 12-23-2005, 12:44 PM.Comment
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Take a look at this thread.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=109609
Cheers
******216;yvindComment
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WOW, thanks a lot you guys. I thought that there was something suspicious about this guy..now I know. Thanks again.
Happy holidays,
PaulComment
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Lessons Learned ? I learned one recently and I want to share some of it. I got stung and as part retaliation and part wanting to educate attacked the dealer(not Mr.Winkler). Afterward I spent alot of time surfing the websites, I found questionable items on nearly all whether they were big ticket items or just things like tunic belt ramps etc. What I said and what Bob Hritz said as well as others, try and KNOW what your doing before buying and if you do all the research before and still buy then find its questionable or fake YOU made a mistake. I made a mistake I regretted it after I bashed the dealer and since have made amends. Business is business people want things that are near impossible to find so they appear nearly regularly, that alone is a red flag.But if you ask your self what an original Third Reich tunic, an original set of Totenkopf insignias is worth, what do you come up with? An untouched vet captured KZ NCO tunic would be an incredible find and sell for double by certain dealers or as some now do POR.
Also if you have to show a piece to several people you "trust" for opinion you may not always get HONESTY for an answer.In this case I did see the eagle shadow with a UV. What does an eagle shadow on an Army tunic badged for the SS mean?
Ive heard RUMORS that were FALSE spread by advanced dealers and collectors about items being post war put together complete with stories to "back it up" . Young collectors take these stories to heart and if they come out of the right mouths as TRUTH. It can ruin a sale,degrade a collection,hurt a reputation and just because some just cant stand not being the one to own or sell a piece and someone else getting notoriety. " All SS visors must have thin chincords" "all SS tunics should be five buttons and not have a dagger hanger" " All SS collar tab piping should be the same width" " All collar tab pips should be a certain size"
How does anyone know whether or not Mr. Winkler actually follows guidelines for what you deem as original and fake?How do you know without taking time to talk to him and get to learn what he might know or not know regarding round bottom stickers and SS tunics and his own opinions on them? We can sit here and throw blanket condemnation around all day long.I am a terrible offender in this and should have listened to my collector elders in the hobby more. The truth is he has many nice original items for sale and you have an opportunity to buy them or not.
P.S. I always bug the sellers with a ton of questions about an item before buying it even if I think it might be annoying.
Last edited by John Pic; 12-23-2005, 02:30 PM.Comment
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And if a guy enters a shop and buys a radio that doesnt work, he should have known from the beginning it was bad... Well this argueing is ok until a certain level! For sure this shop would have gotten a bad reputation and people would have started to avoid it.
But for third reich militaria the normal standards of rights of a customer is less expressed and you have to take the blame your self. It shouldnt be this way! Unfortunatley its the reality! A collector really has to become his own expert to survive! And for sure we collectors cant go to a newspaper and tell what happened! They dont give a d-mn about nazi memorabilia collectors. Face it! We have no rights and this is the very reason forums like this exists.
Therefore its good to give some honest opinions here, ofcourse based on your own knowledge. On Winklers site you can find fakes obvious even to a fresh beginner. For most dealers this kind of items would have been removed right away to save the reputation. On Winklers site they are kept in the listings even after a long time.
Still there are some really nice original items on his site. He does keep a nice collection of cuff titles for sale.
A dealer has to be very skilled and knowledgeable to survive and therefore can get a higher price, but then, we collectors do expect to get the real stuff! Once fooled few collectors come back..... I wonder if some dealers understand the basics... or if they rely on fresh or stupid/not-knowledgeable customers only?
/FelixLast edited by Felix; 12-23-2005, 02:58 PM.Comment
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Dreamers !
Dear all,
I have been collecting german militaria for 20 years.
I am always astonished when i read questions about authenticity of
wss tunics which are supposed to be untouched and unquestionable.
A WAFFEN SS TUNIC WITH ITS ORIGINAL INSIGNIAS IS SOMETHING VERY
DIFFICULT TO FIND. I PERSONALLY OWNED ONE WSS TUNIC WITH ORIGINAL
INSIGNIAS IN 20 YEARS..
STOP DREAMING!! There are plenty other things to buy...
Every months, new wss tunics..........What about good sense in this business ??Comment
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Felix, I agree with you and I dont want to be pro or con in this debate. The truth is we arent buying Radios which on the outside look good and fail in thier interior mechanics. We are buying something that we have many books,elder collectors,forum threads and shows where we can examine what to look for.
My first SS officer tunic was purchased through Manions many many moons ago, boy was I happy,I later sold it through another auction many moons ago to upgrade. I just found an old photograph of it and held a magnifying glass up to the sleeve eagle,guess what...A BIGFOOT!! This tunic was bought by me around 1977-78 and had a real Der Fuhrer cufftitle and real shoulder boards, but thats about it.This has been going on for many many years.Big Dealers and Collectors never badmouthed Ron Manion at least not publicly,they used his service to achieve thier needs and still do.
What does anyone who is angry over this type of thing propose be done about it? Do you think it will stop? Or do you think we will be only limited to buying from Dealers who carry a 100% original inventory and prices that reflect the awareness of it?Are there any?
My advice is just to buy with caution and to buy what you like from whomever you like,why limit your possibilities when all you have to do is use your head.
Felix didnt you get a nice piece of insignia from this very dealer?Comment
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may i say also one thing
herr winkler and many other dealers, herr niemann included,make mistakes.
collecting is knowing your stuff and ask for help if you don't know.
his prices are mutch too high that is treu. but can you blame a dealer for selling a fake if he return's you the money.
i have never had a problem with him and on this forum there are a lot of collecters who have buyed from him wonderfull originel pieces.
what i want too say is do your homework and don't be afraid too ask for help.and dealers make mistakes also.
regards johanComment
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Fakes abound in all areas of militaria not just WW2. Having collected militaria of all kinds for over 40 years I have seen the most respected antique arms dealers handle fakes on a regular basis . Arms catalogs of the most vaunted Auction Houses , Sotheby's , Christies , Julias, Devines , etc., have fakes on a REGULAR basis. You can get screwed BIG TIME from anyone of them , and then try to get your money back! Read the terms in one of their catalogs. I cannot think of a single dealer in 40 years who has not handled a bad items from time to time. I also cannot think of any collectors who have not bought them (me included) . We considered it part of the game and skipped over the bad items and cherry picked the good. Sort of like trying to get the honey from a hive without getting stung. A friend of mine always says if it wasn't for fakes there would not be enough good items to around and we'd be paying several times what we are now.
It is the hobby we have chosen, and fakery is a major part of it but is also in all areas of collectibles. Some dealers are much more honest then others , some don't care and some are 100% crooks. If you want to collect this kind of material you need to buy only from places with a guarentee and know what you are buying. If not the forums here are a good place to have it looked at but there is no substitute for personal knowledge.Comment
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I think Mr. Winkler has a mixture of good and questionable stuff, so I agree with some others who posted on this thread..."you better know your stuff"....what I don't like is that he doesn't offer a life time full money back guarantee...I think he has a 6 months guarantee which, IMO, is just not good enough for an international militaria dealer in this price range....A good dealer should not hesitate to offer a better guarantee on "his" items...it shouldn't matter if 6 months or 6 years went by.
Just my thoughts...
Cheers
FritzComment
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I agree with John, Winkler perfectly knows his staff/fakes and there are no mistakes.
Here is a good example of his business and his "good name". In the picture below, the skull on the left is a known fake that Gary Wood posted in the "Fake ss Insignia" thread (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...0&postcount=38) and the skull on the right is the item number 20017 on Winkler's Web site.
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