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**robs** · 10-14-2005, 02:36 PM

Interior

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**TONY Q.W.** · 10-14-2005, 03:24 PM

From these pics, I personally cannot fault it... interior looks good.

**Bob Coleman** · 10-14-2005, 04:22 PM

I agree that the hat looks original. It also looks well worn. To me, the price is quite excessive for a piece in this condition. However, to each his own.

Bob

**derek** · 10-14-2005, 04:38 PM

I would be checking the velvet band on this hat and other construction details. The exterior does look absolutely authentic but the lesser ranks' quality lining doesn't quite seem to fit with the outside of the hat. The fact that it has a makers' mark is another worrying factor. Call me old fashioned but I still subscribe to the general rule that Waffen-SS caps are better unmarked. As to the price, I agree with Mr. Coleman, if you want to spend it, go ahead, but over six thousand dollars seems excessive for this piece.

Sincerely,
Derek Chapman

**GHP** · 10-14-2005, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by derek

but over six thousand dollars seems excessive for this piece.

Would that be NZ $6200? If so, that amount would equal US $4,319.

--Guy Power

**Antiquefrog** · 10-14-2005, 06:31 PM

Perhaps the price is excessive, who knows in today's market, but it does look very good on first impressions.

I simply cannot subscribe to the theory that caps like this were never marked during the private-purchase era; this seems foolish to me, notwithstanding any contrast between interior and exterior quality. There were countless, perhaps hundreds, of makers during the war years - new ones are being discovered all the time (ask Gary Wilkins). The cap, and its components, should be evaluated as a whole.

**Donald Abenheim** · 10-14-2005, 08:22 PM

Muetzenmacher

Perhaps I am daft, but does not Mollo, vol. 6 contain this passage?: "....Initially, manufacture and retailing of field-grey SS peaked caps was controlled by the RZM, but in February 1941 they were freed from RZM control, and from then on were obtainable from private hatters and uniform outfitters, although the insignia were still only obtainable from the RZM or one of its outlets..." The issue is, how were these caps then marked. As of 1935, on orders from Schickelgruber, party regalia was to halt or surely phase out the use of logos, &c. (this policy surely had to do with the effort to restrain actual Nazi kitsch, versus Nazi-approved kitsch, as well as to mollify those parts of the commercial sector that likely did not receive party contracts and complains of discrimination...) One can read same (nix to logos) in the Herstellungsvorschriften d. RZM and well as the directives to contractors for the manner in which to provide materiel for sale, retail, distribution by the RZM. However, I infer from the above that after early-1941, such caps would have differed rather not at all from other caps. Surely my colleagues with access to more of the primary sources and who can go beyond my shop-worn citations of this now somewhat old book can cast light on a matter of some heated debate. Sapere aude.
The footnote for same: Mitteilungsblatt d. RZM # II 25 Jan 1941. cf. Mollo, vol. 6, 1991 ed. p. 12, 16.

PS In the web, I also found on a scholarly wesbite for a given German municipality, an interesting passage about a Jewish owned textile firm of 1935 that was RZM approved, and kept in business because the NSBO cell (i.e. Nazis) in said firm had suceeded in keeping the license so as to assure the jobs of said dozens of Nazi employed by said firm. Go figure.

PSS Elsewhere for awhile in the web has been the diary of an SS doctor seconded to Auschwitz, who describes the necessity to assemble his uniform kit via mail from the Generalgouvernement. I believe he, too, was one of Verschuer's accolytes, like Mengele, but I am not certain. But he recounts the effort needed to order a cap and an SS raincoat from the SS Kleiderkasse, as well as in great detail what he ate each day and the booty he otherwise acquired in the Protektorat Boehmen-Maehren, as well. Use of Kleiderkasse from afar was somewhat problematic. One has the sense he dealt with the one in B'ln, even if there were later various outlets in the Europe of the New Order.

**derek** · 10-14-2005, 10:00 PM

Dear Mr. Burnham,
"notwithstanding any contrast between interior and exterior quality."
"Nothwithstanding" is the crux of my post. My point is the same as with any collectible. If one aspect doesn't quite add up, one then evaluates the next feature and so on until a firm conclusion is reached. The lining, which appears to indicate the NCO level, might not match the exterior and therefore could be questionable. Does a logo add a further question mark? Perhaps. I have seen many undoubtedly real officer Waffen-SS caps, all had plain interiors. But that is only my opiinion based on my experience.
Don't mistake my intentions, I was not condemning the hat. I was merely posing questions that a collector about to part with six thousand dollars should be asking.
Sincerely,
Derek Chapman

**Lonewolf** · 10-14-2005, 10:13 PM

Donald ,I find Mollos info regarding Waffen caps being under the RZM intriguing .We often hear the common nomenclature of RZM Helmet and RZM cap when were talking about the black stuff-but I've never heard anyone say that I've got a RZM waffen cap.Since these pre-feb 41 would be under their control I would assume that much like the other RZM controlled products that they would adhere to some specifcations of manufacture and approved materials maybe not cookie cutter but close.With that in mind could one surmise exactly what could constitute a RZM waffen cap or more specifally has any material surfaced that would support any identification of these caps?I'm not asking these questions to be confrontational but I find this tidbit of RZM waffen caps at least to me to be a revelation.

**Bob Coleman** · 10-14-2005, 11:16 PM

We must remember that the prewar SS was not Waffen SS but SS-VT and Totenkopfverbund. The equipment and clothing of these organizations were governed by the RZM. I agree with Mr Chapman that the majority of all gray officer's hats I have seen have been unmarked. This hat hits me as being mid to late war with the lesser quality sweatband. Possibly, the product of a manufacturer outside of greater Germany? Images can only produce proof to a certain level. Hands on examination would answer the question.
As to value, it seems only the few glamour dealers can attain the astonomical prices asked to day for SS items. At this point, I feel that prices have rocketed upward so rapidly that we are going to se a peak and leveling off soon. Few collectors have the resources to buy at today's inflated levels. I am looking for a couple of nice black officer's visor caps but must defer as I do not wih to pay the price quote these days by the big guys.
Bob

**Donald Abenheim** · 10-15-2005, 12:35 AM

"RZM Waffen cap"

Originally posted by Lonewolf

Donald ,I find Mollos info regarding Waffen caps being under the RZM intriguing .We often hear the common nomenclature of RZM Helmet and RZM cap when were talking about the black stuff-but I've never heard anyone say that I've got a RZM waffen cap.Since these pre-feb 41 would be under their control I would assume that much like the other RZM controlled products that they would adhere to some specifcations of manufacture and approved materials maybe not cookie cutter but close.With that in mind could one surmise exactly what could constitute a RZM waffen cap or more specifally has any material surfaced that would support any identification of these caps?I'm not asking these questions to be confrontational but I find this tidbit of RZM waffen caps at least to me to be a revelation.

Earth grey of field grey peaked caps for officers existed in the LAH by the end of 1935. How were these caps fitted out versus the black caps of this era with which I am wholly familiar? You tell me, but do show me the photographic evidence. There is a collector who posted on the GDC site a grey officers cap of about 1937 manufacture, with the runes under the rhombus and a yellowish liner and otherwise the features of what one sees in a Sonderanfertigung black officer's cap. The cap also has a black RZM tag. Colleague Coleman has a grey NCO cap, and I have seen more than one of these that seems to have features as found in the black OR/NCO caps, but never in the cloth. I have never examined this grey officer's cap in person, but the images bespeak utter authenticity to me. I believe that those grey caps sold through the SS Kleiderkasse and made on a contract basis were, as colleague Chapman points out, devoid of a logo as would likely have been the case with other NSDAP-related items, even if the armed SS had morphed into a situation where it was part in the party, and part an entity supported by the state. Colleague Chapman has images from the Kleiderkasse catalog. Now that I have read the Kaienburg book, at some point, perhaps these caps were made solely under the auspices of the SS Verwaltungsamt/WVHA from SS economic enterprises, &c. and disassociated with the kinds of features we see in black caps, some of which were made into the early war years. I do not honestly know and I enjoin others to offer CONCRETE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE in this connection, rather than gun show lore. Mollo's quote from the Mitteilungsblaetter d. RZM is such evidence. Perhaps further editions of the works of Wilkins and that of the late Mr. Beaver have such evidence. My sole issue here is the Mollo quote and the early-1941 date therein, which has as long as I have owned this book (...1973....) been an article of faith with me. However, there are many unanswered questions here. It is also plain, that the SS Kleiderkasse was also an interest free clearing house to facilitate the purchase of regalia from RZM vetted tailors, hatters and military outfitters, who one assumes, made their own material or secured it by intermediaries or directly from the RZM. That is, in addition to the Kleiderkasse having its own goods on offer, it also aided other vetted firms to sell their own goods. This fact bears keeping in mind, I believe. The Mollo quote suggests that save for the insignia, this aspect of control vanished in early-1941 so that SS members could secure headwear from anyone who wanted to make same. At the same time, of course, the bulk of grey SS caps on the market are fake, and many of these are caps made up from the guts of army caps or from whatever and bear close scrutiny. But the existence of same should not obscure the historical fact contained in the Mitteilungsblatt of 1941. The issue then is, how many officers could have had caps made in the years that followed? I shall leave this issue to someone else, but surely there were thousands who availed themselves of this possibility, and, also likely, it was also these caps that were blasted to smithereens in air raids, worn out in battle, and then cast out, set ablaze, or lost to the ages when the regime went tango ultra. However, the foregoing is solely a guess and the reader of the legion threads here about this very subject might despair about the circular quality of this all, and remind you and me of the need for a kind of linear progress of knowledge and insight.

**obergruppen** · 01-03-2007, 07:47 AM

Waffen-SS Visor Cap

I am a new member and i would like to wish a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all the members !!!

I am convinced that the visor cap shown on the photo is a original,everything indicates so but then lets not forget that today one can use a perfect repro and make it look even better.
I have seen several originals and i can tell you that they look awfull,hard to believe that someone is willing to pay such money for a bad looking visor cap but an original is always an original.
I have two original helmets,Heer M-35 and Waffen-SS M-42 and will soon obtain an original Waffen-SS visor cap but please dont ask me for the condition of it,very bad and the price is way below the one shown and it comes from the Kursk region !!!
I personally find perfect repros more fun because they are just like the original,they are in mint condition,dont smell, but to find a perfect repro on the market is quite a problem !!!
I have seen most of the visor caps on the net and i can tell you that only two sellers offer perfect repros because i bought them and i can tell you that they are just perfect in every way,not one mistake,everything seems just like the old ones (Erel Sonderklasse,Ges.Gesch.Berlin) up to the detail !!!
My advise is that it is much wiser to purchase a perfect repro for a reasonable price than to pay enormous ammounts for a questionable "original" .

**Wolften** · 01-03-2007, 08:01 AM

Well...
this is a dealer price...lol... after, I think with 2 pictures, it's hard to tell : real ? or not ?... I would want more picture detail, and for a final expertise and opinion, touch in my hands the item...
the ss cap is a true problem, because this is the same model cap with heer cap, but just the color of this band is different, and the frankenstein is realy a True problem...
I see " real waffen ss cap" on the U.S.A dealer site for 10 000 us $ the cap, crazy or just a nice dealer....???? lol

Best regards
Wolften.

**obergruppen** · 01-03-2007, 09:13 AM

At a certain point,almost all of the Waffen-SS divisions were employed on the "Ostfront",there are still many original items owned by people who never heard of the internet,seen with my own eyes,the only problem is that they dont like strangers with a foreign accent,so guys,start learning russian

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