Insignias wore by members of the Ahnenerbe?

[gencom]

Hi!
Does anybody knows Which cuff titles was realy wore by the SS members of the Ahnenerbe?
RFSS? Reichsführung-SS? It is quite confusing (some people says they used the Reichsführung-SS cuff title after the Ahnenerbe was incorporated into Himmler's personal staff in 1942, but before? RFSS? Rusha?).
And what about the "Raute" (Diamond) Leben-Rune : With or without silver piping?
Thanks in advance.
Regards.
GenCom

[Donald Abenheim]

Ahnenerbe

This is a good question. A simple way to answer it is to examine the German pictorial work on Wewelsburg, as I had thought the staff was from the Ahnenerbe. Michael Kater wrote an excellent book in the 1970s on the Ahnenerbe. There is a more recent book on the Rasse u. Siedlungshaupthauptamt, viz: Isabel Heinemann, Rasse, Siedlung, deutsches Blut &c. (Wallstein/Goettingen, 2003). Neither of these books deals with regalia, however. I believe the Beaver books have images of R u S Hauptamt uniforms. Surely someone else can answer this question better than I have here. I am unsure whether it is in Mollo or Angolia, actually.

[Robin Lumsden]

Most members of the Ahnenerbe were professional scientists, archaeologists, researchers etc. who worked FOR the SS but were not actually members OF the SS.

They just wore civilian clothes.

There was no 'Ahnenerbe' uniform, as such. Members of RuSHA, the RSHA etc. attached to the Ahnenerbe wore their regular SS uniforms with appropriate RuSHA, RSHA etc badges.

[Donald Abenheim]

Ahnenerbe

Thanks for this. Surely, however, granted Himmler's patronage of those parts of culture, scholarship &c. of use to the SS and the regime generally, some of these figures would also have had SS rank. I guess one can figure this out by looking in Kater and then the rank lists. In this case, one wonders what they would have worn as badges? I agree wholly with colleague Lumsden's response. I would love to own a black Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt uniform.

[gencom]

Hi Sir Lumsden,
First of all i wish to thank you for the interest about my thread and your participation.
You said that there was no 'Ahnenerbe' uniform and i agree with that but what about these SS members who wore the "Life Rune" Diamond on the left sleeve?
I read on another forum that this "Raute" was wore by the members of the Ahnenerbe. I know for sure that the RuSHA department had the "Odal rune" Raute sewn on the left sleeve and i've seen on a book (i don't remember wich one) an SS general dressed with his black dress tunic that bears the RFSS cuff title & Life rune Diamond.
Do you have more informations about this "life" rune Diamond? (wich cuff title was wore with it?).
I realy thank you in advance for your answer.
Best regards.
GenCom

[Robin Lumsden]

As I understand it, the members of Ahnenerbe who were also SS members but not members of RuSHA etc., would have worn the life rune. These would likely be scientists etc. granted SS membership specifically on account of their working for the Ahnenerbe.

[gencom]

Thanks Very much Sir Lumsden.
So if they were not attached to the RuSHA, do you know where? RFSS?
In the HAYES's book "SS uniforms, insignia & accoutrements" (page 28), There is a pic of an SS officier member of the Ahnenerbe. He wore the Life rune Diamond on his forearm and a blank Cuff title but i also read that the Member of the Ahnenerbe were attached to the RFSS and wore the RFSS cuff title. Here is the link where i found out this informations : http://www.germaniainternational.com/ahnenerbe.html
This is quite confusing...
Can you please let me knowh which cuff title they shall wore?
I realy thank u in advance for your answer.
Best regards.
GenCom

[derek]

Does anybody have any period material that identifies the Lebensrune as being a badge for the Ahnenerbe? As I understand it both this and the Odalrune diamond were both for members of the Rassewesen. (I have no idea why there were two badges for one group, I will have to check this out.) Thus if a member of this organisation was assigned to the Ahnernerbe he could wear the Lebensrune diamond.

Regards,
Derek

[Donald Abenheim]

Mollo

Does anybody have any period material that identifies the Lebensrune as being a badge for the Ahnenerbe? As I understand it both this and the Odalrune diamond were both for members of the Rassewesen. (I have no idea why there were two badges for one group, I will have to check this out.) Thus if a member of this organisation was assigned to the Ahnernerbe he could wear the Lebensrune diamond.

Regards,
Derek

Part of the issue here is Mollo. His entries for these badges seem to conflict at first glance. I think the Odalrune badge is illustrated in the '40 and '43 Orgbooks, too, if I am not mistaken. There was a Rassenamt in the Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt. I refer once more to the excellent monograph on same that I cited above.

[gencom]

So, if there was a Rassenamt in the "Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt" (and i agree with it as it is mentioned on the molo book "uniforms of the SS vol.1), there was the possibility for members of the Ahnenerbe who were attached to ths SS, to wore the RuSHA cuff title with the "Leben Raute" on the forearm, but when looking to the pic of the SS Officer shown on Haye's book "SS uniforms, insignia & accoutrements" (page 28), he wore a blank cuff title, nor RuSHA or even the RFSS cuff title as mentionned there : http://www.germaniainternational.com/ahnenerbe.html
So once again, it doesn't seems to be very clear.
GenCom

[Donald Abenheim]

So, if there was a Rassenamt in the "Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt" (and i agree with it as it is mention on the molo book "uniforms of the SS vol.1), there was the possibility for members of the Ahnenerbe who were attached to ths SS, to wore the RuSHA cuff title with the "Leben Raute" on the forearm, but when looking to the pic of the SS Officer shown on Haye's book "SS uniforms, insignia & accoutrements" (page 28), he wore a blank cuff title, nor RuSHA or even the RFSS cuff title as mentionned there : http://www.germaniainternational.com/ahnenerbe.html
So once again, it doesn't seem to be very clear.
GenCom

You are correct. The longer I am at this, the more contradictions and issues arise with the secondary literature. There is much more here to be known beyond the same, bloody old details of the LAH or the Totenkopfdivision. I share your interest in this aspect of the SS, to be sure and appreciate that you pose difficult questions. At the same time, Mollo really did us all a great favor with his books with the combination of primary research, illustrations, &c. The Hayes book has nice color pictures, but a novice seeking to understand the SS would be at a total loss---the key insight into the SS is its almost cancer-like growth, its change of missions and functions and its heterogeneous set of tasks &c that really defy common sense in comparison with other organizations in the experience of Prussian-German state and society. Ergo, colleague Lumsden's Black Order book is especially useful along with Mollo. If you read German, you are better off nowadays because of the astonishing, scholarly research on all these entities promoted by greater interest in the perpetrators of genocide, as well as files opened up in the last fifteen years from the revolution in Europe. Sapere aude! PS with all due respect to the operator of said website cited above, I would resort to some more water-tight printed literature in this connection before drawing any conclusions.

[gencom]

Hi Donald,
Thanks very much for your answer.
I'm happy that your share the same interest about this aspect of SS, but unfortunately, we still are at the same point .
I realy want to resolve this mystery so, if anybody could share their informations about the cuff title(s) wore by the members of the Ahnenerbe (who were attached to the SS), it would be very nice! Please, help us
Thanks in advance.
GenCom

[Donald Abenheim]

Hi Donald,
Thanks very much for your answer.
I'm happy that your share the same interest about this aspect of SS, but unfortunately, we still are at the same point .
I realy want to resolve this mystery so, if anybody could share their informations about the cuff title(s) wore by the members of the Ahnenerbe (who were attached to the SS), it would be very nice! Please, help us
Thanks in advance.
GenCom

After looking in Mehner and Koehl, two sources of excellent quality, it is plain that the Ahnenerbe was a branch of the Persoenlicher Stab, RFSS, and Wewelsburg was yet another branch of the same entity. So, I guess these people would have worn the same badges as HH personal staff within the RFSS, which would be: blank collar patch and the RFSS and later Reichsfuehrung SS cuff title? I leave this issue to others and seek the answer with my French colleague. One needs more illustrations of these people versus the same old images of scarred Ritterkreuztraeger, floppy caps with a cloth visor, smeared engine oil and dark Russian dirt.

[gencom]

Well, you definitely right about the fact that they were attached to the Persönlicher Stab of the RFSS. But once again, all members should have worn the RFSS cuff title, not the blank one (blank was generaly used by the SD personnel, this is quite strange...) as shown on the Haye's book by this Officer member of the Ahnenerbe.
Here is what i got from another forum : "The sleeve diamond with the "life" rune is attributed to members of the Ahnenerbe by some references, including Angolia's "Cloth Insignia Of The SS". (Others associate this sleeve diamond with certain RusHA personnel.) and they should have worn the "Reichsfuhrung-SS" (not "RFSS") cuff title after Ahnenerbe was incorporated into Himmler's personal staff in 1942. "

Well, ok, i agree with this point (1942) but what about prior 1942??

[derek]

Dear Gencom,

There was no Rassenamt "in" the Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt. Rassenamt was just the original name for the race department. It was renamed RuSHa in 1933.
The photograph in Hayes book is interesting and bears study. The plain cufftitle was worn by almost all the SS-VT units at their inception and by some referenten. It is listed in early official RZM documents in the section Oberabschnitte titles. Given that it could also be worn by members of staff in various Allgemeine-SS units it is unlikely we will know exactly what this officer was assigned to.
My guess would be that this officer was a Landwirtschaftliche Fachberater (Agricultural advisor) attached to Darre's Rassenamt, hence the diamond.
Incidentally, the odalrune and Lebensrune are both simultaneously listed for for Rassewesen in official SS documents. So, until there is contrary documentation I don't see how we can attribute this diamond to the Ahnenerbe.
Again, I would reiterate Robin Lumsden's earlier point. To the best of my knowledge there was no official uniform or insignia for that particular section of Himmler's Personal staff. If a member of the Ahnenerbe was indeed a member of the SS then he would have worn his regular uniform.
Regards,
Derek

1936 SS Price List:
Artikel Nr. 862 Aermelabzeichen fur Rassewesen (Lebensrune) .27
Artikel Nr. 863 Aermelabzeichen fur Rassewesen (Odalrune) .27