Regarding SS Officer tunics on today’s market

[M40]

I wonder where the KZ-officers uniforms came from? Maybe from the captured KZ-officers....?


1.PNG
3.PNG

[Ian Hulley]

I wonder where the KZ-officers uniforms came from? Maybe from the captured KZ-officers....?

Unless it's removed from the body by someone they don't.

No-one would risk being caught with that in their closet at home let alone wearing it.

Ian

[John Pic]

Unless it's removed from the body by someone they don't.

No-one would risk being caught with that in their closet at home let alone wearing it.

Ian

Usually KZ officers lived near their job or in barracks adjacent the KZ. There is a slight possibility they were killed or ran off and left a uniform in their cabinet. But a minty field gray wool uniform ?? I would be highly suspicious .I'd expect such a tunic to smell of cigarettes and show some wear, those guy were not the best fit examples of the Waffen SS.

It's possible SS officers who went out and were killed or captured kept a walking out tunic at home or in the case of one original the tunic was returned to the family blood stains and all. I remember a former U.S. intelligence officer who bunked with the wife of a Wiking officer at the wars end and took photos wearing the officers tunic, and of the wife wearing it . He said he brought it home but it was stolen when he loaned it out for Halloween. I got the belt and daggers from him and he shared the photos with me.
But those situations were rare and cut off insignias more common.

[AntiqueWW2]

I wonder where the KZ-officers uniforms came from? Maybe from the captured KZ-officers....?


1.PNG
3.PNG

From the same Crap of a Dealer who sold the other TK Officer Tunic, same Wool nonsense and same fake Effects. UK Battleflag Militaria. Who believe something like this is real need help....a lot of it. I have seen in the last year alone i think 6 of these wool Tunics for sale, GBJ Officer, Standartenfuhrer, LAH Panzer ect.....all in same Condition. Some had real Effects, others like this one complete fakes. I think i have seen less period Pictures from SS Officers in this type of Tunic then what is now for sale. Wool Tunics are the most easy way to go when you like to build an SS Officer...use a bit of steam and with luck the old traces are gone, you can change out the Collar complete to get rid of any traces there...a lot to play with.

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...for-discussion

[BrianK]

Do the same rules apply when looking at Alg. SS uniforms? Real pre 45 insignia applied to fake post 45 tunics etc?

[John Pic]

Do the same rules apply when looking at Alg. SS uniforms? Real pre 45 insignia applied to fake post 45 tunics etc?

No I don’t think so since those tunics are really hard to fake correctly and many survived intact because they sat in closets throughout the war. I really don’t know how well the fakers have gotten with the black tunics though , maybe someone could weigh in on those.

[Robert H]

Blk Allg. tunics are getting complete very well tailored or partly restored.
Its not difficult for a good tailor, and good tailors are out.
Remember 80s when complete original black cloth balls surfaced.
Purchased only for one purpose ...

[DonC]

I don't "do" SS, but WRT the Italian gabardine, I won't even touch one that is Heer unless it has ironclad provenance. There were still bolts of original Italian cloth into the 1990's that were tailored into WH uniforms - you still see some floating around at the Max and SOS today - mint condition, generally a higher rank and rare Waffenfarbe, award loops up the wazoo. Norbert Graetz used to have a ton on his website.

Don

[drbill]

Very informative thread! Thanks for sharing

[John Pic]

I don't "do" SS, but WRT the Italian gabardine, I won't even touch one that is Heer unless it has ironclad provenance. There were still bolts of original Italian cloth into the 1990's that were tailored into WH uniforms - you still see some floating around at the Max and SOS today - mint condition, generally a higher rank and rare Waffenfarbe, award loops up the wazoo. Norbert Graetz used to have a ton on his website.

Don

I agree, I don’t remember seeing this material before the 1990’s. I am sure it was used on occaision since some period SS Officer photos depict it. But back in the 90’s I was visiting Scott Babcock at his Traders of the lost Surplus store in Palm Desert . Scott had just returned from a trip to Germany. He told me that he met a person with hoards of material, cloth, cyphers, pips, buttons, etc. he had a carton of those Assman 3 prong skulls and several of the “Rounder” KC’s he brought back. It was Scott who got Pakistani manufacturers to stop using thread the glowed under UV. He showed me some experimental SS decals on helmets from Lucky Chucky in Colorado. I learned quite a bit from Scott who found it amusing how gullible people were. He even shared names, big names in the hobby who bought stuff from him and resold it as original at shows. He worked at shows with Frundsberg veteran Untersturmfuhrer Gerhard Franske. Gerhard liked to look at my tunics. He was quite capable of telling real from fake and collected reproduction items. Scott’s sleeve eagles were spot on and perfect except the lack of a cardboard interlaced. It is now 2020 imagine what’s been done since 1996-7.

[HowardC]

You guy's have quite an interesting subject going on here. Although I collect SS and my uniforms fortunately came from veteran hands, I am now wondering about the seemingly constant arrival of the Italian "gabardine SS m43 field caps. I have had several come through my hands other than veterans sources and let them go. They seem to be everywhere!!? Not likely the fakers created just tunics and insignia I'm guessing?

[John Pic]

You guy's have quite an interesting subject going on here. Although I collect SS and my uniforms fortunately came from veteran hands, I am now wondering about the seemingly constant arrival of the Italian "gabardine SS m43 field caps. I have had several come through my hands other than veterans sources and let them go. They seem to be everywhere!!? Not likely the fakers created just tunics and insignia I'm guessing?

Never collected SS M43 caps, but I always wondered the same thing. I rarely see a nice tricot SS M43 with the skull on front and eagle on the side. Mostly Italian gabardine with a trap.

[brooksbz]

Hi. This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. As one of many collectors I have been studying the hidden mysteries of the tailoring and sewing techniques of SS uniforms hoping to unlock the types of secrets that are discussed here.

I hope Owen (Kammo Man) finds this thread and post his thoughts on this matter. he usually has lots to say on the subject and can make a positive contribution to this thread. I have posted two posts, one from him and one from another collector that I read periodically to help me grounded on the fact and hypothesis' associated with constructing a modern fake made from original materials. The two provide interesting insights that I find valuable ( I hope they don't mind me sharing their thoughts!). Yes, I believe a new uniform can be produced from an original pattern and original materials by long-dead German tailors in the basements of clever dealers (Kammo Man Post #1). I know also it is hard to fool an experience collector who know what to look for, and understands the "signature" of a garment actually produced in the 1930's to 1940's.

I have always been impressed in John Pic's knowledge of SS eagles and his ability to spot a fake a mile away. He has a rare talent but I am sure he took the time and paid the price to become educated on the subject. The same can be said about SS Uniforms, ... if you know what to look for (see the unnamed Post #2). I believe that pictures alone cannot tell the complete story of an SS Tunic. There are tricks of the trade and 'signatures" that can only be found on period uniforms, and most of this features can only found when observed in person.

Sure, there is the potential that a "Ground Up Super-Fake" made by the anonymous North German tailor that will disapprove my hypothesis. My point it takes much more that original materials and patterns to make a period SS uniform. Fakes can be identified. These uniforms can be considered through the lens of science and art, and the art part is hard to fake.

[John Pic]

Hi. This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. As one of many collectors I have been studying the hidden mysteries of the tailoring and sewing techniques of SS uniforms hoping to unlock the types of secrets that are discussed here.

I hope Owen (Kammo Man) finds this thread and post his thoughts on this matter. he usually has lots to say on the subject and can make a positive contribution to this thread. I have posted two posts, one from him and one from another collector that I read periodically to help me grounded on the fact and hypothesis' associated with constructing a modern fake made from original materials. The two provide interesting insights that I find valuable ( I hope they don't mind me sharing their thoughts!). Yes, I believe a new uniform can be produced from an original pattern and original materials by long-dead German tailors in the basements of clever dealers (Kammo Man Post #1). I know also it is hard to fool an experience collector who know what to look for, and understands the "signature" of a garment actually produced in the 1930's to 1940's.

I have always been impressed in John Pic's knowledge of SS eagles and his ability to spot a fake a mile away. He has a rare talent but I am sure he took the time and paid the price to become educated on the subject. The same can be said about SS Uniforms, ... if you know what to look for (see the unnamed Post #2). I believe that pictures alone cannot tell the complete story of an SS Tunic. There are tricks of the trade and 'signatures" that can only be found on period uniforms, and most of this features can only found when observed in person.

Sure, there is the potential that a "Ground Up Super-Fake" made by the anonymous North German tailor that will disapprove my hypothesis. My point it takes much more that original materials and patterns to make a period SS uniform. Fakes can be identified. These uniforms can be considered through the lens of science and art, and the art part is hard to fake.

You make some very good points, but it’s good to remember these ground up fakes are sold to people who look at a website photograph , decide the have to have it , and then pay thousands. Many of those people are relative new comers, several I know started no more than 15 years ago. When their prize arrives they put it away and rarely does anyone see it but them. Until they try to sell or get nervous and post a “what do you think thread”. I will write a little more on this later. Owen certainly does know his camo stuff . I couldn’t match him on that.

[AntiqueWW2]

Every piece of clothing that someone could sell well back in the day was faked. SS certainly on place 1 but also highly decorated Wehrmacht uniforms, field caps etc. I can still remember when employees of certain Dealers went around in circles at every show and fleemarket, bought all the old coats they could find. A month or two later these Dealers had then some very special highly decorated uniforms for sale. All in great condition... straight out of grandma's closet. Don's right too, they found warehouses full of old cloth that was cut into uniforms and all kind of Stuff. There is a Dealer now (not Weitze) but one with a high reputation, who has one or two uniforms on his side every few months, always army always in the same fabric and cut. If i want to, i could make a very long list of uniforms of high level people (Generals, SS Generals,etc etc) what are considered original today that were made in the 80's and 90's, some of them I had in my hand when they came directly from the tailor. The only good thing, if you know where to look, at least I can still tell if they were made after the war or not. The time factor is also important. One must not forget that the really good pieces were made more than 30 years ago. And they already have a certain patina, the effects sit well etc which makes it harder and harder to tell what it is from the pictures alone. Therefore I can only advise anyone who wants to buy something of high quality and spent a lot money to check it before and above all you have to have it in your hand. This has always been the golden rule. And it doesn't make a difference anymore where you buy or what reputation someone has...the really good stuff can fool a lot of people and it doesn't always have to be an intention behind it. Also the saying it comes from the veteran is no longer valid, the time is over. 99% of the stuff you get today has already gone through one or more dealers or collectors. So always keep your eyes open and better write a mail with one more question than standing there at the End with a collection of crap.....