Regarding SS Officer tunics on today’s market

[John Pic]

It has been a while since I posted a conversation starter here. I have not been away from the hobby just observing and starting a new life after ending an 18 year marriage. I am over that hill now. But I wanted to post something that occurred to me over the past 20 years. The majority of SS Officer tunics offered by a lot of dealers in mint or near mint condition are made either from that Italian “ Iron weave” gabardine or rough field gray wool. In the case of the Italian gabardine I think a majority of these are newly made tunics with authentic insignias added. As for the rough wool tunics popping up in mint condition the same theory applies, newly made tunics with real insignias added although on both types real bullion sleeve eagles are hard to come by so often they throw on a Babcock Pakistan non glow special or a Sieder but those kind of phased out once outed. Sometimes you get a real eagle though. My theory also applies to some high end Heer tunics that appear out of the “woodwork” .
One thing I noticed is how very few if any of these SS officer tunics appear in the standard earlier war German Tricot gabardine material unlike all the original Heer tunics in this material floating around out there. The absence of available SS tunics in this material is suspicious to say the least. But there is good reason as to why, you cannot hide the signs of a post war upgrade of a Heer to SS tunic on this material. There are real SS Officer tunics in collections out there and on occasion offered at Astro pricing on the “good” dealers sites. But there is good reason for healthy skepticism with many. I welcome ideas and debate about my theory, look forward to the replies.

[M40]

Interesting post - maybe this is the new "Champagne" scandal?

[jacquesf]

John,

I agree 100%. I have been looking for a good ss officer or even em/nco, even restored and they are nowhere. I have not seen a half believable one at a reasonable price. J

[AntiqueWW2]

You 100% Spot on, that is what i preach since forever. All Field Gray Wool Tunics to me, with SS Insignia on it are nothing more then build nonsense. Italian Gabardine is a bit harder to spot what is build, but also there the major Part is build. How can it be that 30 Years ago it was a nightmare to find one Officer Tunic what is real and now every Dealer has one or more on his Site. Also always super rare LAH with Cuff ect. I own 5 Officer Tunics, 3 are made out of early Tricot Gabardine one of Italien Gabardine and one is white. More important, 3 of them are named. But all beside one had the Insignia partial or complete removed, it simple was like that in 1945. They removed it, not many where keen to tell someone he was a Member of the SS when the War ended. There is a Law i always use, in Europe all SS Tunics are build or restored, the few real once are in private Hands. With a lot lot Luck you may find a good one in the US and that is it.

[Robert H]

Very very rare material to find one original untouched Off. tunic. Much tunics where rather going thrown away then to keep them back then.
Then when you find one mostly missing their insgnias. Some view collectors can be very happy with original ones with provenance.

[greg.p]

so all of these tunics are monetarily worth no more than the sum of their parts ?

[John Pic]

so all of these tunics are monetarily worth no more than the sum of their parts ?

The problem is proving a tunic like the ones I described were actually made during the war. In a few of them I examined I could find absolutely zero aging or signs of wear . I collected tunics since the 70’s every Heer officer tunic that passed through my hands had some wear or use signs and if not the age was detectable.
Real tunics stand out if you handle enough of them but a lot of collectors jump right in the water when they get excited over something they see on a dealer page. No hands on is done, no thought put into the purchase. I did this with one tunic but when it arrived I realized It was not what I expected. All insignias were textbook original but the tunic itself was like it just came of the rack at Hugo Boss yesterday. It was not “textbook” for me. No one I showed it to could say if it was real or not, not even experienced collectors. When you see these big groupings like the Wisch grouping or the Fegelein grouping , you realize someone is building these uniforms for big money.

[John Pic]

I have owned original SS Officer tunics which gave me a little insight as to what to look for. Trial and error is a teacher, it’s how I began noticing the sleeve Eagle patterns then the sudden changes when collectors became educated on those. Then the new fresh uniforms with real insignias. Of coarse you have the old reworked worn uniforms from the American fake consortium, a few posted on this forum over the years.

[John Pic]

An SS officers tunic as they are more commonly found. This one stripped and full of BB sized moth holes, badly damaged. The very obvious shadows of the insignia show well on this tricot gabardine material the lining smells of cigarettes . Just an example, even with out the damage the material has an age stiffness to it .

[Ian Hulley]

Back in the late 70's all we ever saw or read about being for sale were stripped tunics or Heer field tunics and gear. As a teenager (probably around 1978-9) I remember being offered a stripped KL Inspectorate tunic for £99 ... how they knew it was a KL Inspectorate tunic I have no clue but probably fortunately it was beyond my reach. Locally and in-person all we saw were tarted-up West German or British surplus.

Ian

[rbno]

John, you're preaching to the choir. That's one of the big reasons I primarily collect loose insignia. I've had dozens (hundreds?) of US uniforms pass through my hands, primarily from flea markets and yard sales. Perhaps 5% of them are complete and untouched. Why should I expect German uniforms to be any different, especially the more desirable ones.

Alen Davidson

[Rigsby]

Hi,
Back in the late 1970s/ early 80s a fair amount of tunics, trousers etc were coming out of the Dutch rag trade. I used to deal with a gent from Rotherham and all items were usually stripped of all Insignia! Also Tony Oliver used to import tunics from the rag trade a decade earlier, usually by the palette or weight. He told me all were stripped and not one W-SS!! He had some good contacts in Europe but, never found untouched SS! Lots around now!
Cheers,
Rigsby.

[John Pic]

John, you're preaching to the choir. That's one of the big reasons I primarily collect loose insignia. I've had dozens (hundreds?) of US uniforms pass through my hands, primarily from flea markets and yard sales. Perhaps 5% of them are complete and untouched. Why should I expect German uniforms to be any different, especially the more desirable ones.

Alen Davidson

Yes! I remember scouring the surplus stores in the early 70s which were abundant , the only U.S. WWII stuff were Ike jackets and other dress stuff, some Vietnam surplus and Korea stuff but very few WWII combat items. When I lived in Germany 81-84 I scored some nice intact Heer tunics and Police tunics, but in my three years there the only SS item I found was an 83 numbered cuff title. But I feel there is a large group of novice collectors with money who frequent this forum. It's important to educate them about these things. They seem to gravitate towards SS before even studying what material they are even dealing with.

[panzer1432]

Yes! I remember scouring the surplus stores in the early 70s which were abundant , the only U.S. WWII stuff were Ike jackets and other dress stuff, some Vietnam surplus and Korea stuff but very few WWII combat items. When I lived in Germany 81-84 I scored some nice intact Heer tunics and Police tunics, but in my three years there the only SS item I found was an 83 numbered cuff title. But I feel there is a large group of novice collectors with money who frequent this forum. It's important to educate them about these things. They seem to gravitate towards SS before even studying what material they are even dealing with.

Yes, everyone wants a nice SS tunic...but very scarce, almost impossible to find TR untouched.

[viva_giulio]

I have and had only 2 Waffen SS tunics
1 GvB group bring back from USA with many repairs and some holes and traces of blood also if washed
1 standard 5 buttons German trickot good condition but prewar period

Is really difficult to find them.