Charlemagne Flak Battalion Celtic Cross Collar Patch

[Panzermahn]

Hi, this is my first post here.

I am currently doing some research on the collar patches of the Waffen SS and SD foreign auxiliaries and I was wondering whether anyone here as well as experts on Waffen SS insignia ever saw a photo (either a repro or a war photo) showing members of the Charlemagne Flak Battalion (based at Munchen and did not participate in the Poomeranian Battles) wearing the Celtic Cross collar patch.

My co-researcher (we are preparing a manuscript for a book solely on Waffen SS and SD Foreign auxiliaries collar patches) told me that he saw a Celtic Cross collar patch on a uniform own by a serious militaria collector in France back in the 80s.

He also told me that it was a cross enclosed in a circle as in + and not x as post-war repros.

As you all had know, the planned collar patch for the Charlemagne SS Division was to be a sword with laurels (the Jean D'Arc collar patch) but the SS faction of the division protested that they should wore the pagan Siegrunen. Therefore the celtic cross was designed as an alternative intended for the catholic faction of the Charlemagne Division (former veterans of the LVF - 57th Regiment as well as replacements from the Milice Francaise) but it was also accepted by the the true SS-ers of the division (former Sturmbrigade veterans - 58th Regiment) as the Celtic Cross is not only an old Catholic symbol in France but to the paganists, the Celtic Cross is another variation of closed Sonnenrad (sun-wheel).

I would like to asked if any members here saw a wartime photo showing the celtic cross collar patch worn or knew any more information on this enigmatic collar patch of the Waffen SS.

If there is any collector who own such photo, please PM and I would like to discuss the copyright issue for the publication of such photo in our upcoming book.

Thank you.

Regards
Joachim

P.S. By the way, I was wondering why I couldn't post any attachment to this topic. Apologies because I am a new member.

[ben haynes]

ben haynes

i have been trying for the last 2 years to find info if this celtic cross collar patch was ever issued to the Charlemagne flak men but have come up with nothing. what are the chances that it was issued?? anyone know??

[Fred S]

If it can help I heard about this collar patch but I'm not sure it was ever produced (seen some postwar made) and of course never see any pic showing it.

When the Charlemagne was created, former SS 7th sturmbrigade managed to keep the runes and most of others (LVF, Milice, ex 1940 POW, KM, NSKK and individuals) had collar tab without insignias. Of course it had exceptions.

[Askold]

I never heard of Celtic Cross collar tab ever being issued or designed. Perhaps you a reffering to the Sunwheel tab (a cross in a cirle) that was issued and worn by the Dutch volunteers in the Nordland Division? There is a photo of such tab in use.

[Rene Chavez]

This is the tab that "panzermahn" is referring to, which was issued to members of the Charlemagne FLAK unit eventhough there is no evidence and also has been associated to the Danish Youth political party. It was certainly made but never issued. Also there is no connection or evidence that it was made for members of the Nordland Division.

http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Cloth/c412.htm

Rene Chavez
http://axis101.bizland.com

[Askold]

Hi Rene,

Just as I thought! The photo of this tab in wear is around the net - you can find it on Axis History forum (at least when the forum was on line). As for which division it belonged to French or Danish, I don't realy see how I could be connected to the French - French never used this symbol, however when we examine the Danish NS party and its formations, we can see that the Sunwheel was a gery popular emblem.

[ben haynes]

ben haynes

yes i think it was never issued as you all say there is no photos or paper work that i have ever seen to say it was issued. who knows??

[Fred S]

Some Flak vets survived and, according to what I've heard from other vets from the division, the Flak's never spoke about it. I'm sure they would have been pretty proud to wear such a particular tab, IMO.

[Askold]

Some examples of Danish NS party wearing that particular emblem:

[ben haynes]

ben haynes

the only info i have is that after the war ended the us army made a waffen ss collar patch chart and the celtic cross collar patch is on there the story goes that american aircrews that were shot down by the flak battalion saw this collar patch being worn by them, but again everyone loves a good story

[Bob Hritz]

Here is a table from the 1945 SS pocket diary. It is apparant that a number of collar tabs were produced and not worn as well as designed, but yet knowwn if ever produced.

However, the circled cross was definately designed for French SS men.

Bob hritz

[ben haynes]

hello to all this was posted on the axis history forum,
the first project of tabs for the Charlemagne was the sword of Joan of Arc.
Since the brigade was called charlemagne instead of Joan of Arc,this project was dismissed...SS runes issued....then a project went along to give the celtic cross,even today traditional shield of french ultra right...of course the end of the war was in sight.... but at last the Flak batallion received it ...a former charlemagne member told me so.We where at the local union of former paratroopers,and the guy had been a foreign legion paratrooper during the Indochina war... he was drunk,so i didn't believed it,thinking it was kind of a fantasy...untill some years after ,in Paris where a friend of mine who was a serious SS militaria collector (he owned more than 10 complete uniforms,incluiding a full black uniform with coat, of a SS untersturmfuhrer of the totenkopf sturmbann of Dachau KZ...) and he showed me a stubaf,or oberstubaf jacket of the Charlemagne,flak btl,
correct with national colour high on left arm,with a EKII ribbon with small Luftwaffe adler on the ribbon (for Flak fight) AND a celtic cross tab.
maybe the celtic cross collar patch was issued but as there are no photos no one will ever know regards Ben

[Gaspare]

Wow,,check out the proposed tabs for the Hungarian and Turk units!!

Hey Bob, maybe you better take that down,,next thing you know the tabs will be showing up added into Dachau loads!

[Gary Wood]

Wow,,check out the proposed tabs for the Hungarian and Turk units!!

That would be some tab if only !

[Askold]

I've seen this illustration but I always wondered, could it be that Germans simply made a mistake? They did show two tabs on the list that never existed to begin with. Also if the celtic cross tab did exist, then the sunwheel tab in question looks nowhere near like celtic cross.