Would it be a crime to..................

[Mat Holloway]

Would it be a crime to add original insignia that matches the wear on a tunic, the tunic also being original but stripped for use after the war? As it could be a way of buying a fairly priced ss tunic?
thanks
mat

[TMurray]

Mat, not at all if it's for your own collection and display. That's exactly what I have done with an original Allgemeine SS service (black) tunic. I obtained an original tunic with no insignia bar a shoulderboard, after much searching I found the correct original insignia for it (collar tabs, cufftitle, armband). The tuffy is the piping for the collar, found a maker of twisted aluminium piping in the UK, not original but very close.

Tom

[Robin Lumsden]

Matt.

I agree.

The chances of finding a 100% untouched SS combat tunic are about nil despite what can be seen on some of the dealer sites. You just cannot find them.

Putting original badges on an original tunic is the nearest most of us will get.
I have done it myself and am very happy with the result. To all intents and purposes, it's what was done during the period anyway.

As long as you don't try to sell it later as 'untouched', I can't see the harm.

[SgtB]

I agree it's ok. But I've done it and it just left me feeling kind of
'empty' for lack of a better word. Like I was trying to fool myself.
Unless it is a vet purchase, I try to stay away from incomplete
items nowadays so that I don't get the urge to 'embellish".

[Bobwirtz]

I agree with Robin in that there are not very many SS uniforms complete with all of their insignia. The best chance of finding one is from a veteran or their family and the tunic was one of those walk-out dress pieces that was left at home. The field tunics probably had insignia taken off by the veteran or GIs looking for souveniers. And personally I don't see why there should be a big price difference between something that is 100% authentic and something that has a single piece of insignia 'restored'. I used to look for tunics with missing cuffbands so that I could restore it with one from a unit that I didn't have. But the prerequisites were that there had to clearly have been a cuffband on the tunic before I got it. Then of course deciding on which cuffband to put on it and then finding one that matched up with the wear of the tunic was a big problem. But I'm always up front when I show off my collection and tell the viewer that this piece or that piece has been restored. Actually I've been fortunate not to have had to do this very much. I won't take a completely stripped tunic and restore it though... with insignia being difficult to acquire these projects take years to complete. I agree with Brian that 'embellishing' a tunic is not right, that is, adding insignia to it that wasn't there in the first place. You can tell what has been there and what hasn't. In restoring tunics, however, chances aren't very high that you'll restore it to it's original historical self, that is, who knows for sure what the rank, waffenfarben and unit really were on a totally, or partially stripped tunic? I knew a collector who had a really nice Totenkopf tunic that was missing the cuffband. He was selling it and another collector, who by the way was an insignia collector, wanted to buy it so he could cut off the Totenkopf collar tab for his insignia collection. Had he done that and then passed along the tunic to another collector, what are the chances that the new owner would restore it as a Totenkopf tunic unless he was told? The removal of the cuffband and collar tab devoided that tunic of it's real identity and character. Somebody else down the road would probably have restored it with a runic collar tab and some other cuffband. I agree with 'restoration' but not 'embellishment' and I also agree that it shouldn't be sold as 'totally original' - be honest and tell your buyer what you have restored, etc. I don't think it's going to hurt the resale value that much, after all, look at how difficult it is to acquire original insignia that matches up with the wear of the tunic!!! It's taken time, effort and money to find good insignia and that should be worth something!

[Scott A. Hess]

I agree with Bob and Robert's opinions..although I know that others disagree..sometimes so pointedly to approach actual contempt to anyone who has done this. I've had tunics where I have literally searched for YEARS to acquire the proper insignia in the proper condition..and restored the tunic using only period thread (which takes can take years to find but its out there) and in my opinion that in and of itself is a worthwhile task/project to restore items to their original condition.if not alway totally original rank etc as that can be guessy. Very few collectors of cars will leave them in a rusted rotting state..but "restore" them to their once showroom condition. While the comparison is somewhat apples/oranges, I do think it is of some merit. Of course..everyone collects according to his own criteria, and thus one man's restoration is another man's destruction. I myself dont have a problem with it.

[bwanek1]

I fully agree with "restoring" uniform items using original insignia. However, I would prefer that you not go that extra mile in using period thread. Though I appreciate the desire for authenticity, I dislike the thought of restorations being so perfect as to fool future buyers. I am certainly not saying that you would intentionally deceive someone, but after this item has left your possession and changed hands a few times, the history of the work done on it will likely be lost and it would be unfortunate for a restored tunic to be taken for an untouched original. Therefore, by using modern thread, future owners will be able to do a quick blacklight test and see what was original to a tunic and what had been restored.

[Scott A. Hess]

Bwanek.I understand your concerns..most likely if I ever sell the tunics...and Im sure I will one day..I will simply remove the insignia that has been put on it.and return the tunics to the condition they were in when I bought them..thus "restoring" them to an unaltered condition..but I can not say 100 percent that the tunic was not "restored" prior to obtaining it..a cyclic condition I know.but fortunatley or unfortunately the insignia is so well applied that it exactly mimics wartime practices...which in my opinon is a true restoration.using original thread and sewing techniques..Im sure a lot of individuals would be happy with the quality of the insignia (real) thread (real) and application tecnhniques..they may not publically disclose this..but its just a thought.

[Bobwirtz]

Bwanek. Unfortunately once something leaves your hands there's not much you can do about it anyway. I've seen entire groupings of reenactors uniforms, caps, field gear and paperwork (soldbuch & wehrpass) offered on the auctions as authentic WWII German. People make reproductions for reenactors and museums, etc. and sell them as such, but once out of their hands, they have no control over them. If people go out and misrepresent them as authentic to the WWII era, there is nothing they can do about it. They cannot monitor the auctions and warn every potential bidder off.

I prefer to have my restorations sewn on professionally and using period thread. Once it is out of my hands, at some point after I'm dead and it doesn't matter anyhow, it is out of my control and people are going to do what they want anyway. INGSOC39: Once I have restored a piece of insignia on a tunic, it ain't coming off while I own it. I've hunted many years for some of that insignia -- being at the right place at the right time and with the money -- so when I sell it, or it gets passed on after I pass on, it ain't going to be removed.

[Scott A. Hess]

Hello Bob..I appreciate and fully understand the challenge that goes with the "hunt" for the ellusive insignia...as with you If Im restoring a piece..it can literally take years to find the right piece of insignia..it becomes (the restoration of the pice) a sort of "mini collection" in and of itself..I know you know what I mean..and with prices.one cant always pick up a 2k tunic every month..so its worth it for me to soothe the the "addiction fever" to have tunic that I restore every year..I dont know...its just fun and challenging..and I enjoy it very much..I dont think I would remove the insignia unless the collector who wanted to buy thpiece asked me to..the thought to remove it was if a collector said I want it "untouched" but then..its been touched..and as in another forum...I've seen pictures of tunics "restored" in the early 70's....generally..as Im sure you do..I (one) must study the sewing techinques..not only to restore the piece properly..but also as what to look for in period pieces...although sewing is basically sewing..and the germans certainly didnt invent the "zig-zag" stitch...there is quite an art and skill in and of itself to tailoring and sewing...really good work takes a artist...their being different application and stitch patterns...the crudest being simply what a soldier did in the field..to what a unit tailor could do..which may or may not have been what a skilled shop tailor could do..my ex father in law was a tailor by profession and in the Afrika Korps..his teachings..as well as my own study and research is what I call upon..obviously there are only so many different variations..and its not rocket science..but it is a skill (the sewing either by hand or machine) which requires real talent and patience in my mind. Occasionally I've even had used a period electric sewing machine...other than finding the 80 year old seamstress..its about as close as one can get to the absolute real thing.. all but plus 65 years..but still..the hunt for insignia to complete a uniform is a real treasure and fun pasttime.. when one finds just the exactly right piece of insignia in the right condition.its satisfying. Again.its not for everyone...and many will disagree..perfectly acceptable as we all collect how we like. I know many high end dealers who have an entourage of specialists who do repair, cleaning, "restoration" of just about anything.