Bloodstained Gestapo Warrant Disc

[MrMiler]

It´s time I bring this gestapo warrant disc forward to the community as I know you guys like to keep track og the few discs that are out there.

I only had a few bad pictures to go on, but with input from Don Bible, I took a chance and bought this disc from an estate sale in Oslo, Norway about 1,5 years ago.

I then ordered Dons magnificent book before finally sending it all the way over the Atlantic and back to get it verified by Don. He´s a true gentleman for sure.

This disc originally belonged to the sellers great grandfather or the sellers grandfather. He was not sure. It had always been in the family and now his father had passed away.

Both the great grandfather and the grandfather were born in Oslo and were Norwegian citizens. I know their names and dates, but neither the seller or I have found any proof they were involved with the Norwegian resistance during ww2.

After examineing the disc closely I thought the residue on the disc looked very much like a blood stain. A friend who works in the local police provided me with a field-blood-test kit. The kind they use at a potential crime scene to determine if there are bloodstains. The resultat was not to be mistanken. There is a big bloodstain on the disc! If only it could talk....

Enjoy guys.

[JustinS]

An incredible piece! Even better with the blood!! Thanks for sharing.

[Reichskanzler]

Wow! One of the nicest Gestapo Discs I have ever seen!! Thanks for sharing it!! That’s super rare my friend!! Well done!!

[N.C. Wyeth]

Don. He´s a true gentleman for sure.

Cool. And yeah - he is a true gentleman. Finally managed a moment to talk to him - around a trash can at the entrance of the SOS this year.

[Simon O.]

I would think there's a good chance of being able to identify the gestapo officer in question. I can see it coming from a suicide at the end of the war and if it comes from an Oslo family, that narrows things down a lot.

[MrMiler]

I would think there's a good chance of being able to identify the gestapo officer in question. I can see it coming from a suicide at the end of the war and if it comes from an Oslo family, that narrows things down a lot.

Please feel free to elaborate on this subject in PM if you want. I would love to be able to narrow this down.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

just to be sure, did the test you used confirmed it is human blood or just "blood" ?
Because if i'm right, you need a more elaborated test to check if the blood is human.

See You

Vince

[SiPo]

I would think there's a good chance of being able to identify the gestapo officer in question. I can see it coming from a suicide at the end of the war and if it comes from an Oslo family, that narrows things down a lot.

?? Sorry Simon, not trying to piss on anyone's chips here but I have lots of problems with your hypothesis and I think it would be extremely difficult to near impossible to establish the identity of the disc owner based on the scant information provided.

1. How on earth can you deduce the disc owner committed suicide from a small amount of blood trace? It could just as easily have come from the last owner having a nose bleed on the disc and not wiping it off properly? Completely impossible to determine how or why blood is on the disc?

2. Why does coming from an Oslo family narrow anything down? We don't know where the family picked the disc up and the disc could quite easily have been picked up by someone else from any location prior to being owned by the family??

Really, really nice disc but let's be sensible and unless you know of a list detailing Dienstmarke/Dienstausweis numbers to specific Scandinavian based SiPo personnel or the discovery of the matching Dienstausweis etc., it will be a tall task to identify the owner.

[TP Alexander]

That’s a very nice disc!

[Simon O.]

Understand that i'm talking about possible candidates, as you say without further information it's hypothetical and i can't see a definitive candidate turning up but a shortlist certainly, i don't think it would be wasted effort. If the disk was picked in Oslo in 45 and if that is human blood it's not unreasonable to suggest it could be from a suicide or indeed any other sipo/gestapo in the city. I would think it unlikely it was picked up prior to 8 May 45 but very likely in the turbulent time after the surrender.
In addition, there is a wealth of research done on the subject with a lot available in the archives here, so i don't think it's as impossible as you may think.

?? Sorry Simon, not trying to piss on anyone's chips here but I have lots of problems with your hypothesis and I think it would be extremely difficult to near impossible to establish the identity of the disc owner based on the scant information provided.

1. How on earth can you deduce the disc owner committed suicide from a small amount of blood trace? It could just as easily have come from the last owner having a nose bleed on the disc and not wiping it off properly? Completely impossible to determine how or why blood is on the disc?

2. Why does coming from an Oslo family narrow anything down? We don't know where the family picked the disc up and the disc could quite easily have been picked up by someone else from any location prior to being owned by the family??

Really, really nice disc but let's be sensible and unless you know of a list detailing Dienstmarke/Dienstausweis numbers to specific Scandinavian based SiPo personnel or the discovery of the matching Dienstausweis etc., it will be a tall task to identify the owner.

[MrMiler]

Hi,

just to be sure, did the test you used confirmed it is human blood or just "blood" ?
Because if i'm right, you need a more elaborated test to check if the blood is human.

See You

Vince

Hello.

The test does only say if it´s blood or not. You need more elaborate tests to determine if it´s human blood.

My friend used to work in Kripos (the Norwegian police forensic unit). If the bloodstain is not too much contaminated, it should be possible to extract DNA from it. A DNA sample could potentially determine the country of origin. The problem is that we don't have any commercial providers in Norway performing these tests. I'm hesitant to sending it abroad again.

__________________________________________________ ________

There was one post here earlier that is now deleted. I will address it anyway.

I’m aware bloodclaims are always controversial in this hobby, but sometimes they actually are the real thing and I have the proof to at least say it´s been on the disc for a very long time.

I have the original add where the stain is visible.
I have Don Bibles email where he comments on the stain (which we at that time thought was some sort of corrosion).
I have the written correspondence from the seller about the discs origin. It been in this one family since the war.
I have the text messages from the police officer regarding the test and the result from the test.
I have a video of the test.

That said, without a DNA test, we can of course never be sure of the origin of the bloodstain or how it ended up on the warrant disc, but I'm with Simon on this one. I think it´s more likely it came from a Gestapo-officer, than one of the owners in the Norwegian family.

[SiPo]

In addition, there is a wealth of research done on the subject with a lot available in the archives here, so i don't think it's as impossible as you may think.

Well, after investing nearly 30 years on the very subject of research into SiPo names to Dienstmarke/Dienstausweis numbers & locations and having only scant success, I bow to your experience.

And sorry, unless there is a list of SiPo staff with their SiPo Dienstausweis numbers alongside their names, yes it is as impossible as I think. Very happy to be proven wrong.

Once had a Gestapo disc in my collection found in the UK but with no details whatsoever of where it came from other than it fell in the range of discs associated with Denmark.

The holder was only identified many years later when correspondence from a Gestapo officer was found by a well renowned SiPo researcher which happened to contain his Dienstausweis number. A very, very rare occurrence.

[Simon O.]

Well, suicides/deaths of sipo members in the Oslo area may 45 has to be a logical first stop. Secondly, all sipo/gestapo members were arrested and interrogated for warcrimes, many of whom would eventually stand trial. It's those archives that would be worth looking in to.

What i'm getting at is that it's pretty much established it belonged to a man who was in Norway at the end of the war and that list of names is possible to find. Taking it further than that for sure will be difficult.

[Simon O.]

Just to illustrate what i'm driving at, the Norwegian national archives hold a large number of statements and reports on members of the sipo and other organizations in Norway. The information and details are going to vary widely but it's archive information which few are aware of outside the country.

If it was my tag i'd be heading to the archives here in Oslo.

[MrMiler]

Just to illustrate what i'm driving at, the Norwegian national archives hold a large number of statements and reports on members of the sipo and other organizations in Norway. The information and details are going to vary widely but it's archive information which few are aware of outside the country.

If it was my tag i'd be heading to the archives here in Oslo.

Thank you Simon. This is a really good place to start!