Westerplatte 1939 German MG

[pzo]

Hi,
What kind of aiming device is attached to MG? Picture had been wrongly processed. It shows now wrong side of exposition, like mirror reflection of the whole scene.

[me6_130]

Should it be something like this? I imagine it is an early MGZ for the MG08, but I don't know that model, sorry. Those are Kriegsmarine, so perhaps you should look for KM inventory items.


Carles

[pzo]

Thank You Carles! Nice trick. It looks great

[Mikedenmark]

The optic is a variation of a Rundblickfernrohr.
Not usually used on MG, but it would make sense, if used as a heavy support weapon, on a tripod. In that role, it would be used like infantry support cannons, capable of indirect fire. Baiscally then the optics are notused to aim the MG, but to create an optical correspondance with a "battery" command post.
However, in the photo, I think it, and the gun, is used for direct fire.

[pzo]

The optic is a variation of a Rundblickfernrohr.
Not usually used on MG, but it would make sense, if used as a heavy support weapon, on a tripod. In that role, it would be used like infantry support cannons, capable of indirect fire. Baiscally then the optics are notused to aim the MG, but to create an optical correspondance with a "battery" command post.
However, in the photo, I think it, and the gun, is used for direct fire.

Many thanks Mike. Have You ever seen such variation of Rundblickfernrohr? Would be great to see clear picture of this device.

[Mikedenmark]

Not really seen this before, no. Not on an MG.

I also just noted the shooter is wearing a white shirt and a tie. War is hell, I guess.

[pzo]

Not really seen this before, no. Not on an MG.

I also just noted the shooter is wearing a white shirt and a tie. War is hell, I guess.

Correct. War is hell... Those Germans were from Marine Stosstrupp Kompanie. Some kind of marines, originated from Kriegsmarine. Naval uniforms usually look fancy even on the first line of combat. I have found on Polish forum some pictures showing German naval soldiers on Westerplatte

[Mikedenmark]

Tonight I found time to look up the use of machineguns for indirect fire in Schwarte. A magnificent book from 1920, covering the developments in weapons and tactics during WWI.
He mentions that the use for indirect fire was fairly new by the time WWI ended, and that special optics were developed for this purpose.
While stressing that the MG always will have direct fire as the main purpose, he also strongly recommend to expand the training in indirect fire now the war is over.

My guess is such optics should be found in photo´s from the Reichwehr in the early twenties. I doubt it never really grew into anything. And by the time the german infantry got the PaK 36, and the 5 cm mortar, I see no real use for indirect MG fire.
So, My guess would be photo´s from 1917-1930.
If anyone can find photo´s, where a new 3 sided shield for the heavy MG´s are in use, they may also find this optic. I cannot recall ever having seen a 3 sided shield for these.
Schwarte seems to somehow connect shield and indirect fire.

Incidently he also mentions a wooden tripod, of 1915 vintage, for the MG08. Another thing I haven´t seen.

[Mikedenmark]

I found a text on Wikipedia about the trolley´s or wagons used by the german army to move their MG´s.

It specifies where a Richtkreisunteroffizier will be, on the wagon, or walking next to it.
I don´t see what such a Richtkreisunteroffizier (richtkreis NCO) is there for, if not for supervising indirect fire from a central Richtkreis. To do that, the MG´s needs a Rundblickfernrohr. Like the one in this thread. It seems he disappears from the regulation no later than 1932.

[pzo]

Mike, Great research and great indications. Thank You.

[Johnny R]

I was trying to figure out where they would have been. It probably is staged but a real firing position. They are aiming down. As far as I remember from visiting there, the only two story building was the large one that was later used as the hospital but that surrendered last if I remember correctly. With the optics maybe they were across the harbor shooting toward the Westerplatte?

[pzo]

I was trying to figure out where they would have been. It probably is staged but a real firing position. They are aiming down. As far as I remember from visiting there, the only two story building was the large one that was later used as the hospital but that surrendered last if I remember correctly. With the optics maybe they were across the harbor shooting toward the Westerplatte?

Picture can be found in book: "Obrona Westerplatte 1939" written by Mariusz Wójtowicz-Podhorski. It is described like this: Leutnant zur See Paul Hartwig, leader of MG platoon belonging to Stosstrupp Marine Kompanie on the firing position with Schwere MG 08 in the building of cold store vis-à-vis Wartownia (stronghold) nr 2.

[Mikedenmark]

Odd. I had newer heard of the battle of Westerplatte. Pretty awesome.
The polish soldiers held out for a week. With a battleship firing directly into their positions from a distance of 300 meter, and after 2 waves of Ju87 stuka bombers attacking.

Just a speculation, but just maybe, the house in the background in this photo, could be the warehouse from which the germans held Westerplatte under fire.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...apitulacja.jpg

Update... at least the building it placed correctly for the fight.
Here is another view, looking toward east south east.
Westerplatte is the left bank of the harbour in this photo.
http://www.ebay.at/itm/39119596-Danz...UAAOSwuLZY3UJM
another closer view:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Ak-Nowy-Port-...0AAOSwHHFY9MKN


More photo´s from Westerplatte. Including the battleship.
http://www.1wrzesnia39.pl/39p/galeri...terplatte.html

And, if correctly identified, a photo of the nicely dressed Schütze. Not that I see how they would know it is him. But he was with the navy infantry at the time.
Later became Chief in command of the west german navy. Died 2014.
http://uboat.net/men/commanders/427.html


The germans tried to get radio codes from the surviving polish radio operator. Apparently they did not succeed, so they shot the man after having tortured him.

[me6_130]

I was there many years ago...in 1988 and 89 just before and after The Wall fell. OMG! I think I'm just getting too old


Carles

[pzo]

This is a part of a map from Zbigniew Flisowski's book titled "Westerplatte". It shows the position of Wart. nr II and German MG position on the other bank. The picture must have been taken there.