Incription on Goerz D.f. 03

[SilverScreen]

Hi.
We just recived a 6X Goerz 03 Dienstglas;



Goerz Berlin Trieder binocle
D.F. 03 Dienstglas Nr. 13807. U.F. 6X
Production number ; 144287 (1908)

Print on front "1./J.L."

What I can't decifer, are the writing on the front :



The "1./J.L." --- what are this, is it a signature, or what can it mean.


I had help with other inscriptions in this fora with another Goerz 6X --- only i not as good condision ;



Here the inscription on the front of that ;



Military number show clear. 39. R. 1. 15 , with the production numbers ; 94937 and "private number" 4803. (year 1906)

So I hope someone here know about the inscription on our "new" D.f. 03 ; the "1./J.L."

[SilverScreen]

Sorry, I forgot to put in the link for our collection ; use left and right arrow to see the whole collection at current state ;

https://www.facebook.com/per.corell/...4722724&type=3

Also, Here is a foto of the 3 early Goerz millitary Binoculars. The 6-7-8X Dienstglas and Officier glas ;

[SilverScreen]

After looking in more detail at the production number, removing some small paint remains, I wonder if I read the number correctly.

If the number realy are "144287" or the "1" is a solder splash. Becaurse normaly the numbers are depressed into the metal and then solder filled. But there are no deression under the "1"

Now as the image are very big, I put it in as Link while a foto would destroy the tread;

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/...71375000_o.jpg

If it is not 144287 but 44287, the producton year are not 1908 but 1902. But the question still remain ; what do the "1./J.L." mean ?

[SilverScreen]

There are a bit doubt about the production number though. It concern the first number, the "1" in 144278 it that realy are a one or just a solder (silver) splash ?

Case there are not a "1" but just a solder splash, the production number are 44278 and the year not 1908 but 1902.



After cleaning off the not original black paint, the writing show clearer , what can it mean.

[Mikedenmark]

I looked in the Stempelungsvorschrift 1909.

It could mean Jäger Landwehr.

Meaning a hunters unit from the Landwehr. Landwehr was the second aufgebot, meaning older men, but still fit for service.
Even older, about 45, they became landsturm-men. 3rd aufgebot. Close to the Volkssturm of WWII.

Only, the 1909 manual do basically not contain markings with slashes ( / )
I have the 1878 manual here somewhere. Presently not reachable. I don´t think that works with slashes either.

To me, the unit markings with the slashes are early reichwehr markings. They are also known on early Pre WWII Luftwaffe markings.

My best guess would be Jäger Landwehr, around 1924.

[SilverScreen]

Thank you, I find this a very interestion option and something I been wondering; The english millitary made a campain to collect and select civilian binoculars, putting markings of arrows, to indicate the optic quality on the binoculars "borrowed" from civilians due to the lack of good optics. Esp. the Zeiss bino's of the modern type werw sought for naval use.
I guess the same problem would occour as you suggest with the Volksturm, that quality optics would be sought and as how the Volksturm were organised, the "1" would refere the Gruppenfurer to whom these glasses would belong. Again with the procaurtions you also put forth. The other 6X Dienstglases in our collection carry an "U.F. " that have been read as "Under officier" ( correct me if I am wrong).

Both 6X D.f. 03 in our collection writes " D.f. 03 Dienstglas " under that a "private number" and a line under is say "U.F." But the 7X of same design, write ;
D.f 03 Officierglas and a line under the "private number" --- but only the 6X in question and the simular other in the collection, carry a writing on the front cover, (both upside down compared how you use the binoculars btw. as seen in the foto), and the other 6X have this writing on the front cover ; "39.R.1.15", a numbering we discussed allready in the forum and a great help. So simular to the strictly millitary marking, it sound reasoable as how the Volksturm would be in need of civilian contribution, that even so outdated but still useable optics could be marked. --- This is worth a thought, thank you.

[Mikedenmark]

I do not think this binocular was anything but one bought by the german army. Being a rather obsolete design, it was used by a second line unit. By 1914, "modern" bino´s went to the frontline.

I just remembered where I have the 1923 vorschrift.
According to that, this should be 1st. unit of the Infantry Lehr something. Basically, an I is made with a J, according to the 1923 regulation.
Lehr means learning, which translate into a kind of school unit. Or education unit.

It may originate from an infantry school. That might explain why there are only one number.

What is odd is the fact that it should have been I/J.L.1. Before the slash, roman number, after the unit designation, latin numbers.

Besides, the landwehr did not exist after 1918. Slash and Landwehr should never be able to co-exist.

It does not quite fit into the 1923 regulation. But that is the only one I know, where slashes are in use.

[SilverScreen]

Various details indicate you are right. The back covers are inscribed just as a Dienstglas would be, showing the "private" number;

D.F. 03 Dienstglas Nr. 13807. U.F. 6X
Production number ; 144287 (1908)

With the exception that the production number is rather 44287 (1903)

But none of the Officier glasses 8X in the collection, show any writing on the front covers. The two 6X do -- and a detail ; the writing on both are upside down, compared how they are used.

One 8X Officier glas in our collection, carry no numbers about private or type on the back cover, proberly due to replacement or repair of the cover with a blank without writing.
Also binoculars were not cheap beside not just "everyone" could just buy one. And then outdated models as you suggest, sold by millitary, when new models were offered would be an
alternative for average people. But for a school or for instruction, a good old Trieder binocle would serve well.


Bit off-Topic, Frensh and German Compared ;


03 Officierglas compared frensh "Lunette de cavalry Modèle No. 3" No ; 2074.
77G. 1900-1905 CLERMONT HUET PARIS 8X.
With straight-line guide of the eyepieces. Guide-bar [Geradfuehrung] ocular.


---- There the D.f. 99 offered same type okkulars, something we see make a difference becaurse where the 6 and 8X .
Collectors find these often carry lose okkulars, while there are hardly never problems with the okkulars of the D.f. 99 okkulars, put on by demand of the millitary.
-- They can be stuck, but can allway's be loosened where the 6X and 8X's more primitive design, often mean that one okkular can only be "pushed" to focus.

The 6X seem to be the U.F. Dienstglas -- the 8X the Officier Dienstglas. and the 7X D.f. 99 the bino without the foults of the early 6X and 8X.

Same serie but D.f. 99 carry better quality okulars and generaly is a more rugid design.

All were replaced with bino's with the modern Zeiss design when Zeiss's patent ran out 1908.

In particular this offered also a much wider aparture and a better stereo image.

Binoculars were expensive and sought even being older models, seem they often were put in use elsewhere even when better models took their place.

[Sgt Bilko]

All were replaced with bino's with the modern Zeiss design when Zeiss's patent ran out 1908

If you mean they were superseded by the Zeiss design after 1908 I agree. But many WW1 pictures show the older Goerz still in use.

I'm sure I've even seen an SS book cover with a trooper holding one - but hopefully no totenkopf!

[SilverScreen]

Yes, our collection started with a focus on Opera bino's and pre. 1908 civilian and millitary binoculars. With exceptions this is still how we build the collection. Offcaurse there are early modern designs, but I decided that there simply are to many allmost simular ones, and having a collection with allmost identical, where only details make a difference, don't make the collection we wanted.

I put the collection in a folder on my Facebook ;

https://www.facebook.com/per.corell/...4722724&type=3

Just use left and right arrow to travel the collection.

As you see there are various designs and very few modern, it is more the unuseal or special designs we try focus. I don't have unlimited sources so I try fill the gaps like showing all the Goerz "Pagor" or the various Møller/Wedel Theatis models from the short periode they were produced. But then it happen that a new sample challance with details that tell something about the binocular, and that also become a niche, like displaying the early Trieder Binocle serie that were mainly millitary.

Like these various Carl Schutz Cassel -- Ruf and Co.
Time ; round 1905 -- 1918 for most, the "Baby" could be from the 20's

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/...85993058_o.jpg

[Sgt Bilko]

Nice collection! I'm usually amazed when I use my old Schutz Cassel binoculars. Although my ones are pre WW1, the image quality is amazing. And one's 12x which requires even more quality control.

[SilverScreen]

At 1905 Hensholdt allready produces a bino, that I will say challance any Porro design.



This early Hensholdt image as crisp as a Schutz Cassel , offer more light and focus all, within just a small turn, using an apature bigger Zeiss's 8X --- even the Hensholdt Penta Jagdglas several years before, were in service so known and even with limited aparture, offered many times that of a Zeiss 8X feldstecker.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...55359279_o.jpg

Sorry the URL, but the image were huge.

The later Dialyt were much apriciated and my image of a modern binocular.

[90th Light]

Hello SilverScreen,

I have asked on the Imperial forum if anyone there knows what your unit marking 1./J.L. means.

Here is the link;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...90#post6498890

Regards,

Chris

[SilverScreen]

Thank's ; -- I opened the tread and added two foto's displaying the two 6X Dienstglas with different numbering, hope that tread can suggest the origine.
Thank's.

[90th Light]

I got an expert opinion on this one from a very knowledgeable source;


"The 1./J.L. marking is very unusual from a bayonet perspective. The "/" is
almost never seen on imperial bayonets but standard for post-1918
markings. Ignoring that issue then 1.J.L. would most likely be pre-war
Bavarian Leib Regiment. Before the war the Bavarians did not bother
signifying that their weapons were Bavarian with a "B" and "J.L.x" is
common on their old Werder bayonets with x being company number. After
this possibility I am afraid it would just be hand waving for me and could
be any one of a number of short-hand designations right down to 1st company
of Landsturm or Landwehr Jager formations."


This basically covers it in a nutshell,

Chris