Observation Binoculars Blc 12X60

[ostfront1944]

hello

I am interested in the history and development of German observation binoculars blc 12x60 german military range finder binoculars.

Do you have to share a picture 'in action"of binocular taken during the Second World War and today picture of restored binocular.

What are the care of the binocular.

thanks,

ostfront1944

[globbitz]

Hello ostfront1944,

There are a few entries already within the forum that you might want to have a look at concerning the 12x60s for the 4m Rangefinders.

Try this one for starters:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=12x60

...then try using the 'SEARCH' function from the upper menu bar, enter your search criteria e.g. '12x60' and click to see what it digs-up (I found it has a bit of a delay), so click it only once.

Kind regards,
Paul

[grandnagus]

I have a chance to buy this 12x60 bino. What do they go for?

[Bill Parker]

12x60

We would need some additional information to place a value.

1. condition of the optics
2. condition of the paint
3. Early model with cast sunshade or later stamped

[Madboat]

I think another thing to consider is the data plate. Most are marked for use with the 4 meter range finder but they can also have other equipment designations or just number, such as 5*. They can also have different reticle patterns.

[globbitz]

Hello All,

Indeed, Madboat has a point, as some were used after the war by the French, and although marked as 'Jumelle 12x60', the 'original' Zeiss / blc nameplate markings are removed, and hence I would expect those models to achieve a lower price than models which retain the original German markings.

In some cases of the French post-war versions the 'Farbglasser' plate has been turned upside-down to hide the original German text, but I don't know whether this is also the case for the manufacturer's 'Zeiss (or blc) fur EM-4m' plate, perhaps someone on the forum can attest to whether any cases exist - certainly my pair of 'Jumelles 12x60' DO NOT have the original German markings on it's reserve-face, and is a replacement.

Good luck with your search,

Paul

[mlespaul]

My site's pictures are all down, but, things to look for

1) data plate

* Mfg: Normally Zeiss (blc), but kpd (Goerz) are also seen
* Application: EM 4 m R 40 (mostly seen), EM 4 m R 36 (H) [earlier, less common], 3 m R (Kriegsmarine), Ki-bag (missile theodilte), FMG 41 T (radar system), and so on with more variations considered rarer.
* Model: Beob-F or Rm-F : Beobachtungsfernrohr vs. Richtungs-weiser fernrohr
* Kriegsmarine early variation
-will have the M/IV and eagle nearby on a separate plate if called for by the application it was designed for) Later KMs did not but followed Wehrmacht convention.

2) reticle

* 4 m R 40 : + with /\ in the center
* 4 m R 36: square grid with measurement guide for 1/6400
Kriegsmarine versions followed same conventions, other than certain KM application 12x60s which had a full crosshair design covering the entire fov.

3) exterior finish

* 4 m R 36: dark grey with red stripe along front flip-down shield (for helping the user place it back in the box correctly ) Early-war models.

* 4 m R 40: ordnance tan, but could also be dark grey based on the application it was made for. Sometimes seen with the red stripe in front if it has the casted, flip down shade system. No real rules - period re-paintings are commonly seen.

* Kriegsmarine/coastal application most commonly has the KM-gray finish. Late Kriegsmarine/coastal application is ordnance tan, additional KM markings not seen.

* uniform well preserved finishes command somewhat higher value

4) flip-down sun shield/regenrohre

* 4 m R 36 & early-mid war transition 4 m R 40: casted, flip lever on side with squarish design and two double round shapes along top. shields are flipped vertically down and up inside the houseing. When combined with the dark grey and the red strip, collector's commonly refer to it as the "mickey mouse".

* 4 m R 40 late: switched to rounded oval, stamped metal. Twist/turn control rotates the shields horizontally within the housing.

5) Additional features

* Iron sight. prevalent on KM early versions and 4 m R 36 early style RM-F. (but there are always variations....all it took was to drill the holes and bolt it on.

* Additional optical squarish "quick" sight. As the iron sight. Seen on KMs.

* Eyepiece/oculars pad and protective cover.

- early war: outer made of bakelight, upholstered inner pad.
- late war: outer made of steel, foam-style strips covered with dark brown vinyl inner pad

* Eyepieces/ocular protective cover attached with fabric webbing strap extending from underside below the oculars, sliding through the slots of the cover, then over and attached to top knob assembly. Strap should terminate with a metal button connector that retracts and extends to pull strap snug and place on the button. The button connector is extended and retracted by a small section of webbing at its end, that is pulled by hand. Often found in pieces or rotted/broken off.
Hard to find sets with original webbing and accessories full and intact.

6) Condition of optics, debris within the housing, T-coated exterior lenses, is there flaking, prism cement coming undone, etc. etc.

* apologies to my colleagues for any mistakes or oversights*

I have the36 (H) Rm-F "mickey mouse" and the late war R40 KM if anyone needs more information.

[Madboat]

Here are a few pics to show some of the markings of some of my 12x60's:

most common data plate: for the 4 meter range finder




Marking for 12x60 used with a radar unit. This actual unit is not mine but I am too lazy to take a picture of the one I have




Early marking ( I think)



For a Kibag 40. I have tried with a great lack of success to find out what a Kibag 40 is and find a photo of a 12x60 mounted to it. The post above says it is a theodolite of some kind but I would love to see what it really is.

[mlespaul]

For a Kibag 40. I have tried with a great lack of success to find out what a Kibag 40 is and find a photo of a 12x60 mounted to it. The post above says it is a theodolite of some kind but I would love to see what it really is.

Madboat,
above is the cinematheodilt (Kinotheodilit) The two guiding optics are the 10x60 fernrohrlages, of which I have an example in my collection.

The 12x60s are actually mounted conventionally to a 4 m R 40 rangefinder designated as a " Kino- Basis-Gerät 40" that is part of the tracking system that the Ki Th. was the primary instrument (tracking trajectory and flight path of launched missiles V-1/2). The rangefinder is located at a some distance from this Kibag.

The reason (I have surmised) that these 12x60s had a Kibag tag was simple property accounting. It was labeled as such by the ordnance and property accounting detachments so these 12x's would be kept with the rangefinder for this system, and not lost or transferred to another rangefinder unit in the supply system that was looking for optical components.. When you open the crate to set up your rangefinder, you want to make sure your 12x60s are there and weren't "loaned out" to some other nearby artillery battery! It's an educated guess--the Kibag's (and 41 FMGs, etc.) were tagged as such because they belonged to a 4 meter rangefinder, that was, itself, as always, a component to a larger or specialized system, like our cinematheodilite or large radar system.

I think I remember this being asked a couple of years ago in the Axis Forums, where I posited the same theory, maybe it was you
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=130565

I'm up for a good collegial discussion, and I'd love to hear other opinions, but I really think it's just a way to identify the 12x60 as a component of a 4m that went to a kino/cinematheodilit unit. The 12x60s were mounted to it, not the theodolit.

The 4m rangefinder would then have been called the Kino (referring to the Cinematheodilit unit) Basis-Gerät (the standard convention for naming large rangefinder installations) and of course the model 40 follows. Subsequently the 12x60s are components to it the standard 4 m R, just being called the new name. I don't believe there was a separate technology.


Sorry, if I keep repeating myself.

[atomix58]

BLC Carl Zeiss 12x60

Hello to all forum, I just put up for sale on e-bay a beautiful 12x60 BLC.
Not brand marked, but made by Zeiss for the collaborationist army of occupied France (Jumelles 12x60) According with Dr.Seeger’s “Militarische Fernglaser und Fernrohre..…..” (Military binoculars and telescopes for land, air and sea service) book you can see, at page 475 (the red pages), than the serial number 272189 indicates this was part of a lot of only 1.500 pcs, made by Zeiss (over 12.550 total made)

Very good condition for the age.
Optically nice with clear prisms, without scratch, internal lenses free from fog or dust.
Collimation perfect, you can see very nice razor image.
Mechanically all in good working order.
Targeting sight in the right ocular
Three position internal filters, clear, dark and very dark (works fine)

[ostfront1944]

BLC Carl Zeiss 12x60

Hello to all forum,

Thank for you answer.


I bought this year to a particular people in France a 12x60 blc he had recovered from World War II on a abandoned german range finder.
Is left in good condition the paint it's very correct is yellow dark sand with cast sunshade with the red stripe .

Optically nice with clear prisms,i am quick sight installed on top right of the BLC only the button marked farbglasser is a little hard to turn (Probal the grease that hardens).

I marked 2 has the black paint on the top left of the blc.

Manufacturing quality of the binocular is very impressive I do not know if today we could do the same quality.

Kind regards,

Alain