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**48RMC** · 08-31-2010, 11:33 AM

Luftwaffe Leica's had always the initials Lufwaffe eigentum but never provided with a Swastika and a eagle so what you aspected it's a fake addition

**Thomas9** · 08-31-2010, 12:33 PM

Hello

Thanks for your reaction.
Indeed, that's what I red on the internet (luftwaffe eigentum).
And that made me thinking, this won't be an original one!

What do they cost, fake ones? On the internet I red 100 euros, is that correct?

Thomas

**AndyC** · 08-31-2010, 01:32 PM

Sorry to say but this one is a fake.

I have one original many years ago and it dont look like this

Best

Andy

**48RMC** · 08-31-2010, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by 48RMC View Post

Luftwaffe Leica's had always the initials Lufwaffe eigentum but never provided with a Swastika and a eagle so what you expected it's a fake addition

.......

**Longbranch303** · 09-01-2010, 01:12 AM

Finally, a discussion about Leicas! This is indeed not a genuine Leica camera. I wouldn't even really say it's a fake, as it is nothing like the original Leica versions. It would be more like a "fantasy" camera. Russia manufactured a "clone" of the Leica II both before and after WWII. These cameras were manufactured primarily by two factories, and carry the names of FED and Zorki. Today, the "fakers" use these cameras to produce poorly executed "fantasy" Nazi cameras. When left in their original condition, these Russian cameras are still pretty interesting, and the earlier ones are even collectible. However, they are worth FAR less than an original WWII German military marked Leica, and even about 25% of what a standard III/IIIa/IIIb/IIIc Leica. So, it's easy to see why these are altered in an attempt to make more money. For a comparison to the original WWII German Leicas, visit these pages:

http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm

http://www.cameraquest.com/leica_iiic_k_gray.htm

Please note, these are not the only variations of Leica cameras used by the German military during WWII. There were also many unmarked camera being used, as well as private-purchase cameras. However, the original marked examples have incredible provenance, and consequently are fairly valuable. Also, there were indeed some Leica items that were engraved with the Nazi eagle, such as lenses issued by the Kriegsmarine (these had the eagle/swastika over an M)

Just look at a few of the genuine WWII Leicas and you'll quickly be able to identify Russian copies. There was also a very specific serial number range for wartime production cameras, so it's easy to look up this information and verify the production date of a genuine Leica. Also, wartime Leicas tend to be of the IIIC model variety, which are quite a bit different from the Russian cameras. However, there are a few earlier models, such as the IIIb and IIIa, which were still issued by the German military. Here's a list of what's incorrect about the camera you have pictured:

1. Coated lens. Do you see how the front element of the lens gives off a slightly purplish hue? This is a coating on the lens, developed during WWII to improve optical performance. However, this was mainly used on high-end lenses like the Summitar and Sonnar later in the war. An Elmar would most likely not be coated.
2. Finish. WWII Leicas issued by the military were not brass. This type of finish is created by stripping the chrome for a Russian camera down to the brass, and then aging it to look old.
3. Viewfinder frame. When looking at the camera from the front, you see a rectangular projection from the top plate that surrounds the viewfinder. On a Leica camera, this surround has a very, different shape with a nicer contour.
4. Serial number. This camera has a serial number of 10733. If it were a Leica, it would have been an incredibly early model originally manufactured in the 1920s. Leica did offer upgrade services for older models, but this would DEFINITELY show it wasn't originally acquired by the Nazi Germany.
5. Camera case. Do you see how the cone-shaped part of the leather case with the "Leica" script on it looks newer than the rest of the case? That's because it is! It is just the original Russian case with a new part sewn on.
6. Black trim. There is a thin black painted line of trim on the camera body separating the faux-leather black covering from the metal top and bottom plates. This is not present on a Leica. The pattern of the black covering also looks wrong. The covering on an original Leica looks quite a bit smoother. Please note: Vintage Leicas were almost NEVER covered with leather (there are some insanely, very high-end, deluxe variations covered with special leathers like lizard skin) . They used a very hard type of rubber called vulcanite. This covering gets brittle with age, so don't drop a classic Leica if it still has its original vulcanite.
7. Shutter speed range. A wartime Leica will have a different range of shutter speeds than what this camera has. Also, the majority of WWII Leicas used by the German Military were III series models, meaning they had slow shutter speeds. III series cameras can be identified by the extra knob on the front which is absent from the camera you pictured.

I could go on with other differences, but it should suffice to say that with a little experience, pinpointing copies and fakes is very easy to do (unlike many other areas of Third Reich militaria collecting). If you are simply wanting a WWII era Leica, you might try finding a regular production Leica III or IIIa. These can be found for about $400 in fully working condition with a good Summar or Elmar lens. The IIIc was the main camera of the German military during the war, but pre-war and war time IIIc Leicas are hard to find and tend to sell for higher prices. The vast majority of IIIc's were manufactured after the war. The III and IIIa are completely period correct for WWII, and were used by the German armed forces throughout the war. Plus, they make great images, with a neat "retro" flair (especially the Summar).

**Longbranch303** · 09-01-2010, 01:47 AM

Leica makes good 35mm film cameras, within their own set of limitations. They are a VERY conservative company, and change their products very slowly. For instance, it took them over 10 years to do something as simple as putting a lever on the film rewind knob after Nikon did it in 1955. Zeiss combined the rangefinder and viewfinder in 1936. Leica could't get it done until 1955. Zeiss also included an exposure meter in their Contax III of 1936. Leica didn't do that until 1971.

They make really nice cameras, but it's the lenses that bring Leica all of its fame. There are few lenses which exceed Leica in optical performance.

Word of mouth is most of Leica's publicity today, as few people an afford to own a new model. For instance, Leicas newest M9 digital rangefinder, with lens, sells for nearly $10,000. Yes, it's cool, but all that coolness will cost ya!

**Thomas9** · 09-01-2010, 06:39 AM

Wow, a lot of new information

Thanks for all the info, all of you!

But can some one tell me a reasonable price for this camera?

Thomas

**Longbranch303** · 09-01-2010, 02:14 PM

Honestly, it has absolutely no value to me. At $50 it may be reasonable, but $100 is probably too much. The problem is that these cameras aren't reassembled very well after their "makeover" and generally don't function reliably. So, you'd have a badly functioning camera with no collector value. It would be a far better choice to get an all original Zorki or FED, or better yet, a real Leica from that time period. Another option is to get a Leica III or IIIa camera body and mount a Russian lens to it, which should cost around $250.

The nice thing about buying a Leica is that they are always easy to sell if the need ever arises, and are one of the few film cameras not drastcally falling in value.

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