3,7cm and 2,0 cm optics

[oldnewbie]

Im starting to get in to optics...and Ive seen these optics just curious what is a realistic price window I should pay.. I dont want to pay too much.. HAHA

I like the 2,0 Cm sight picture.

[oldnewbie]

1

[oldnewbie]

2

[oldnewbie]

Here is the 20mm sight.

[oldnewbie]

Sorry wrong pic.

[oldnewbie]

Here is the sight I really think is COOL..

[mlespaul]

Hi,
You could see these 3 x 8s going for anywhere btw 200 to 300 USD. 500 is probably way too high, BUT could be justifiable given the rarity.
Case in point. A 3 x 8 II like you have in the first example is fairly common, but a 3 x 8 (vereinfacht) like for the earlier Pak 38s could be worth more. Same as for any 3 x 8 s that were built for the anti-tank rifles (different reticle) or with certain markings along the dovetail joint that identifies it as a specially made for a certain weapon. Your second example, the 2.0 cm version, is also fairly common and should probably command about the same price range.

Your 3 x 8 II in the first set of pics is NOT a 3,7 cm model. The 3 x 8 IIs were designed for the Pak 40s when the Pak -Zieleinrichtung 38A was put in the Pak 40 guns and used in all similar mountings and higher through to the end of the war. The 3,7cm has yet a different reticle and is slightly less common. Now, could this have been used on a 3,7 cm Flak gun? Sure, it fits the same dovetail slot, but the ballistics of the 3,7 cm ammunition required an elevation scale somewhat similar to the 2,0 cm example to ensure those rapidly (and horizontally) fired rounds made it to the required distance trajectory, with additional gravity working against it.

The 3 x 8 II's reticle was designed purely for accuracy in deflection and hitting moving objects going right to left or left to right, and for estimating distance based on the size of the triangles to calculate the general size of the target and how far away it was thorugh the "strich" measurement system - because the Pak 40's, 41's, and 41/43's using this telescope in the Zeileinrichtung 38A had more than enough "punch" to get the anti-tank round out there, they just required better accuracy in the deflection. Which is why the reticle went from 3 aiming points for the Pak 38 to the 7 aiming points you see there. the newer 3 x8 II's did the job with ease. The gunner with the carriage's range drum adjustment only had to do the rest for elevation, not requiring the optical sight for elevation like for the flak 3 x 8s.

(Confused? I used to be too , now it's a way of life for me )


If the 3 x 8 comes complete with it's carrying case, and other accessories like brushes, cleaning cloths, reticle illumination kit, you can see the price dramatically raise. Same as for if the 3 x 8 (any model) comes with the rubberized eyepiece, the eyepiece is highly collectible, should be marked, and if it is in excellent condition, adds a lot to the value.

Also, some manufacturers made more of them than others, but I've never really delved into that part of my research (yet).

Many of these 3x8 s are also marked as Flak which denotes their use as direct fire (ground) attachments to the flak gun for which they were designed for (all flak 3 x8 s were used to sight ground targets, not aircraft), 3 x 8 II's marked for flak are designed for flak weapons larger than 3,7 cm.

But..always remember there is always an exception to any wehrmacht rule!

[oldnewbie]

Thanks for the good info. You mentioned that the first picture and the view with the triangles is not for a 3,7 what is it for?

The only reason I said the other one is for 2cm is what I can see in the view..

thanks

[mlespaul]

the first ZF 3 x 8 you have pictured is for a PaK 40 (7,5 cm) or larger used in tandem with the Zieleinrichtung 38A or later.

Pak 38 (5,0 cm) used a ZF 3 x 8 like this but only three aiming points appeared within the sight view and was used in tandem with the Zieleinrichtung 38.

The ZF 3 x 8 used for 3,7 cm Flak for ground targeting had a ladder reticle like the 2,0 but with different ranges and also is marked "3,7 cm" within the view.

The other one is correct for the 2,0 cm usage.

[pzo]

5 cm KwK 3x8 sight

Not long ago I've bought standard, 3x8 Flak, ground telescopic sight. It is marked on the left side: O.W.E.L., number, Z.F. 3x8 Flak. On the right side it is marked 5 cm KwK. Optics is partially missing and dirty, but I think it has standard reticle with triangles. How do You think, in what vewhicle it could be used?

[mlespaul]

pzo,

The 5 cm KwK were mounted in the emplacements for the Regelbau 600 type, among some others, which is where that one might have been inserted for that mounting. the 5 cm KwK were regularly seen along the Westwall and Atlantic Wall emplacements in various forms.

If you do a search on the 5 cm KwK for pics you'll see they were interesting in that they were the actual canon setup that you would normally see installed in the Pzkpfw III series, but hitched up in a tall rotating carriage with large shield, and not in the usual wheeled carriage system you see in the Pak 38. These were special bunker installations designed to provide cross-fire protection for the larger Pak 41/43 emplacements and headquarter elements on the invasion beaches and other inland areas.

Since yours says "Flak" it's possible it went to the 5 cm version of the Flak 41, but other than a double axle mounting built to transport the carriage the Flak 41 5cm was not selected to be used on a vehicle mounting, and it was not a successful weapon.

The 5 c,m KwKs for the Panzer IIIs and Puma used the turmzielfernrohr 5d and 5a and would not have used these 3 x 8s as you know. For any other armoured halftracks using the 5 cm Flak 41, yours might have been used there as well, but I'm guessing more likely it went to these bunker festung-style 5,0 KwKs.

[pzo]

KwK sight 3x8

Thanks for providing these valuable and useful information. You have great knowledge. I found nice drowings, showing this carriage mount with the same scope mounted. Thank You very much!

[mlespaul]

My pleasure, anytime.

The more I think about it, I believe that your 3 x 8 did go to the Regelbau 600 for the Westwall/Atlantikwall and it probably was a standard ZF 3 x 8 Flak stamped for use for those 5 cm kwk guns.

[mlespaul]

Thanks for providing these valuable and useful information. You have great knowledge. I found nice drowings, showing this carriage mount with the same scope mounted. Thank You very much!

Perfect photo of the 5 cm KwK mounting showing the ZF 3 x 8 as I mentioned is found on page 10 of "Waffen-Arsenal 29, Geschuetz am Atlantikwall 1942-1945"