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    #46
    I'm a lufty and I do not know if they are genuine or fake. But IMO they are perfect in every points except this brown lining wich is unusual. But I wonder why someone is able to make such boards with so much skills and original piping and HBT and be so stupid to not use a good cloth to make the backside.
    This faker is skilled and unskilled in the same way.....
    If I have the opportunity to buy a pair for a fair price, I'll do it.

    Comment

      #47
      Good point.

      Actually, a faker had only to take the same HBT material as backing and nobody would complain.

      Comment

        #48
        Originally posted by RamJet View Post
        Good point.

        Actually, a faker had only to take the same HBT material as backing and nobody would complain.
        Hello again Ramjet,

        it could also depend how a faker was trying to stretch out his off-cuts of original HBT (is it original HBT ?, whole new can of worms). Why make one pair of HBT boards using two layers of HBT when you can make two pair, thus using up the off-cuts of lining material that you also have left over ?

        The lack of photos of the lining of "Fritz Pohlmann" caps and tunics in this matter is frustrating for us both. What can one do when images are removed and one needs to see them ??? . It is also interesting that Winkler removed his photo archive. I was told at the time, it reached a point where it was providing too much information for those now in the know identifying the fakes. However, you did not have to be a rocket scientist to see that all were not what they claimed to be.

        This said, for those who know their stuff and can pick the wheat for the chaff, some items Kai Winkler sells or has sold are well worth having in any collection. However, if you do not know what you are doing then you would be wise to get a second opinion before you buy.

        Fake boards are made from what the faker can get their hands on. Many fakers have had access to original materials or at least some original materials, one way or another. However, often they have used some unknown materials or even reproduction materials for some part/ parts of the board/ item. This might be because of a shortage of a certain type used, can not be bother getting original material or simply have the fake material on hand. Fakes are often let down by the use of reproduction or inappropriate parts some where in the product, that do not reflect the real makers manufacturing foot-print. We often see this situation with fake tropical boards. You have to keep in mind that who ever made the "Fritz Pohlmann" caps and boards, obviously thought that material was close enough to pass. Also as already stated, it might even be a 1945 bolt of relatively unknown cloth.

        Yes as far as I know, no-one has a pre-May 1945 cap, tunic or shoulder board with that type of lining material. But as you rightly point out, this is not even a scientific sample of the total population of possible items that are out there. The warning about this material comes from advanced German collectors who know the full story of who is making these super fakes. This is also why I am interested to see what the advanced and specislised LW collectors here on WAF say about these HBT boards for the HG. So far only silence ??? What does that in itself tell us ???

        HG boards made for the field grey HBT tunic are as rare as HG boards made from tan twill for the tropical tunic ??? Very, very rare to say the least.

        Can I prove this beyond all doubt that things are wrong ? No I can not and I hope I am wrong, given how much you like these boards. All I can do is share what I know and have observed. Those HG, HBT boards are not for my collection and if they were, I would want to get them so cheap that it did not matter one way or the other.

        Again, I respect you taking the time/ images to discuss this in detail,

        Chris

        p.s. do you think your boards been washed after being made ?
        Last edited by 90th Light; 10-25-2016, 07:16 PM.

        Comment

          #49
          Hi Chris,

          thank You for all Your efforts.

          Actually, period HBT material is out there in large quantities. You want to fake blue Luftwaffe HBT boards, for example? No problem, buy one of the standard coveralls which go between 60 (worn examples) and 120 Euros (mint and unused) on German Ebay. If You run out of HBT, just buy one more, they surface quite frequently (for example, I have four currently, two in blue and two in tan). No need to save material and use another fabric for the backing. You want another colour? Just use white HBT items for slaughtering and dye ...

          To answer Your last question, yes, they are washed. I did it carefully myself to see if there is any fresh dye on them or if they change colour in a way that reveals a modification or if the fabric shows some strange behaviour. The boards passed this test, too. Looked exactly the same like before (minus a little bit dust).

          Best wishes from Germany,
          Steve

          Comment

            #50
            Originally posted by RamJet View Post
            Hi Chris,

            thank You for all Your efforts.

            Actually, period HBT material is out there in large quantities. You want to fake blue Luftwaffe HBT boards, for example? No problem, buy one of the standard coveralls which go between 60 (worn examples) and 120 Euros (mint and unused) on German Ebay. If You run out of HBT, just buy one more, they surface quite frequently (for example, I have four currently, two in blue and two in tan). No need to save material and use another fabric for the backing. You want another colour? Just use white HBT items for slaughtering and dye ...

            To answer Your last question, yes, they are washed. I did it carefully myself to see if there is any fresh dye on them or if they change colour in a way that reveals a modification or if the fabric shows some strange behaviour. The boards passed this test, too. Looked exactly the same like before (minus a little bit dust).

            Best wishes from Germany,
            Steve
            Thank you Steve,

            that is very interesting about the source of period HBT. We have argued here on other threads, about what is and what is not HBT made before May 1945. Personally, I have always thought that the sources and range of WW2 HBT is broader than some state as being the case.

            Your HBT boards made for the HG are thus a bit of anomaly. However, I respect the way that you are taking the time to look at both sides of the coin. To my mind it comes down to; (1) the lining material being pre-45 or not. (2) any advanced collector having a documented HBT board or boards with a brown-grey lining material in any form, from a veteran source. So far we do not even have 100% confirmation that type of configuration was used.

            This is an interesting thread for me, usually I am the one defending a variation from the norm here on WAF. I have always enjoyed variations especially when you get them at the right price. Over the years, I have had some real success where something has turned out to be a rare type made before May 1945. However, on the other hand, I have had to face the facts that a dog turned out to be a dog and was always a dog.

            I appreciate your patience in this matter and wish you luck with what else now comes to light or others might be kind enough to share,

            Chris

            Comment

              #51
              Originally posted by RamJet View Post
              Chris, I tried to get a better pic of the backside to show You what I mean.

              The backing on the right is the broader diagonally striped type which You acknowledged to be found on genuine boards as well as on fakes. The backing on the left side is also diagonally striped, although somewhat narrower, what made it so difficult to photograph.

              You will find the broader striped brown backing for example on page 327 of "Panzer Feldjacke", Vol. I, in the left row, third from below, and the narrower striped type in the right row in the middle.

              I didn't only compared the pics but looked with the boards actually in hand. And I didn't stated that Scott showed "strange" type, "brown backed" HBT boards in his book, I only refer to the backing itself which You damned.

              And yes, I like these boards, and I do so as I usually try to do my homework when I get items which are rare and often subject to fake like all HG boards before I make my mind up. I like this pair, but I don't like the light green piped pair. The differences in material and making are subtle, but can be clearly seen when You compare them directly in hand.

              But I admit, if someone puts together boards in the exact way the tailors did pre-1945 with the correct pre-1945 material, I have no chance anymore to tell if genuine pe-1945 or not.
              I might go a little off topic here but I just wanted to disclose something on the matter of materials as dealt with in this quote from RamJet.
              IMO, the backing shown on these boards aren't actually 2 different fabrics but one and the same. It's just that on the left board the fabric was sewn with the backside up. This kind of gabardine-twill fabric has two different sides, the upside where you can see these diagonal 'ribs' running across the surface (board on the right) and the reverse that looks like a smooth twill fabric (board on the left). That is also why the directions of those 'ribs' are mirrored.
              Personally I have no problem with this fabric, it looks like the standard cotton twill fabric that was used in a huge variety of wartime german clothes.

              Comment

                #52
                Originally posted by Hptm. Fuhrmann View Post
                I might go a little off topic here but I just wanted to disclose something on the matter of materials as dealt with in this quote from RamJet.
                IMO, the backing shown on these boards aren't actually 2 different fabrics but one and the same. It's just that on the left board the fabric was sewn with the backside up. This kind of gabardine-twill fabric has two different sides, the upside where you can see these diagonal 'ribs' running across the surface (board on the right) and the reverse that looks like a smooth twill fabric (board on the left). That is also why the directions of those 'ribs' are mirrored.
                Personally I have no problem with this fabric, it looks like the standard cotton twill fabric that was used in a huge variety of wartime german clothes.
                Very good point and agree with your observation. However, I still have the same reservations about a Luftwaffe HBT board backed with this type of lining material,

                Chris

                Comment

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Hptm. Fuhrmann View Post
                  I might go a little off topic here but I just wanted to disclose something on the matter of materials as dealt with in this quote from RamJet.
                  IMO, the backing shown on these boards aren't actually 2 different fabrics but one and the same. It's just that on the left board the fabric was sewn with the backside up. This kind of gabardine-twill fabric has two different sides, the upside where you can see these diagonal 'ribs' running across the surface (board on the right) and the reverse that looks like a smooth twill fabric (board on the left). That is also why the directions of those 'ribs' are mirrored.
                  Personally I have no problem with this fabric, it looks like the standard cotton twill fabric that was used in a huge variety of wartime german clothes.

                  Not off topic but instead a very interesting observation.
                  Thank You for the input.

                  Comment

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