We've seen a lot of bad M-41's posted, so I thought we would discuss authentic examples. While at the MAX, Kris Anderson kindly allowed me to photograph the Officer's M-41 he had for sale. It exhibits classic construction but has atypical insignia. These, like Chris M's in the Kurtz book, were made with tropical EM breast eagles, machine sewn on. And with a flat cockade, also machine sewn. This machine sewing is usually straight stitched in tan thread. This cap has a padded cockade like tropical side caps that appears original to the cap. The tropical breast eagle has been replaced with a hand sewn original tropical bullion eagle. This eagle is rare in itself; the officer's M-41 is extremely rare. Thanks for allowing photography Kris, beautiful piece! Kris sold this cap on Sunday morning.
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Super hat! Had a good look at it myself. Did anyone else (John?) see that completely textbook one that a friend had? I almost went for it, but had other priorities. I passed it to a friend in Ca, so it has a new home.
John, are you going to share your new item?
WilliWilli
Preußens Gloria!
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One thing I noticed about Kris's M41, was that it was identical to mine, including the inside sweatband. My padded cockade is also original to the hat, so I think that flat machine sewn ones are only present on some. Not sure about my eagle, but I think handsewn is fine on these. Though we know Kris had replaced his. I suspect that a machine sewn breast eagle would leave a trace when removed on either of these...either the stitch pattern or since the size of the breat eagle is larger, there might be a fade line present. All very interesting.....
WilliWilli
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Nice hats!
Thanks for posting this, because I was looking for a thread like it tonight. Was in a tropical sort of mood.
Do these hats shown have seams on the tops? How much did the MAX hat sell for? Mine has machine sewn flat cockade and a machine sewn triangular eagle (rough edge). I'm hoping to get a digital camera sometime this month. Maybe then I can post photos of mine. It's an officer's cap. Silver piping like the two shown. Sweat band is rotted like the one of Chris' in Kurtz's book. My eyelets are like the ones on Willi's (and Kris'). Willi, are your eyelets magnetic? Can't tell with my monitor (on a laptop at work), but are they kind of a bronze color? Natural metal or are they painted? What kind of sweat band does yours have?Thanks.Last edited by Steve in Florida; 09-16-2003, 11:50 PM.Comment
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Hi Steve,
These particular caps do not have the top seam. They do/did have a full leather sweat band. No markings inside. I do have an officer's M-41, German factory made, that is constructed like the Heer M-40s. That is, top seam, soft red lining with no sweat band, maker marked.
Regards,
JohnEsse Quam VideriComment
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Willi may disagree, but I think that the M41 can be found both with and without the top seam. It certainly will depend upon manufacturer and whether the cap was a private purchase, locally made cap or mass produced. If produced by companies that were producing the Heer/Navy versions, I would not consider it to be wrong to find a top seam in the cap. Same goes for one produced by a private cap maker. Absence or existence of the seam really doesn't bother me. Considering the erratic supply of tropical gear to the Luftwaffe early, you took what you got.Comment
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Very true Jack. But the cap Willi and I posted is a "classic" example of Luft. M-41s. The reason I started this thread, to illustrate caps with proven and consistant construction, and thus help M-41 "seekers" avoid the reproductions. An M-41 with a top seam should be maker marked..........Originally posted by Jack MelvinEsse Quam VideriComment
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I can agree with most of that, John. I think that the difference is that some will consider any tropical billed Luft cap as a M41. In reality, a true M41 should exhibit certain characteristics. There are certainly legitimate tropical billed Luft caps that have a seam down the top. However, at the same time, they are not necessarily an M41 as considered to be textbook by the collecting community.Comment
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Hi Jack,
I'm very confused...... "not all billed tan Luft. caps are considered textbook M-41s"
What is then, in your opinion, a true M-41?Esse Quam VideriComment
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John, I'll answer your question with a question. Would you consider this to be a standard M41 or a Luftwaffe tan billed cap?
It exhibits at least 3 characteristics that would make some collectors conclude that it is not an M41: pith helmet eagle, soutache, Heer/KM style squared off cockade.
Naturally, this is probably a Heer/KM converted cap. Perhaps my choice of wording was not clear. What I was trying to impart was that there are numerous styles of tan billed caps worn in the tropical areas by the Luftwaffe that were not what now is considered an M41 by some collectors.
From my readings, even on this forum, it would appear that at one time all of these tan billed caps were lumped into the M41 category. Now, there is a distinction being drawn between some caps exhibiting certain characteristics as being the only style M41. If that is the case, that is fine. But we still as collectors must recognize that there are perfectly legitimate styles of these cap that don't meet the set criteria.
I don't necessarily agree with the no seam down the middle of the exterior crown. In one sentence, people write that the M41s were modeled on the Heer M40. In the very next sentence, the same author will say that they should not have a seam down the middle. So, which is it? Is it a new design or is it a version of the Heer M40?Comment
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This is clearly a textbook, factory made Heer M-40 with a Luft. eagle added. Often done. Several of my Ramcke veteran friends wore Heer caps with added Luft eagles. These vets never had tan caps..Originally posted by Jack MelvinJohn, I'll answer your question with a question. Would you consider this to be a standard M41 or a Luftwaffe tan billed cap?
It exhibits at least 3 characteristics that would make some collectors conclude that it is not an M41: pith helmet eagle, soutache, Heer/KM style squared off cockade.
Naturally, this is probably a Heer/KM converted cap. Perhaps my choice of wording was not clear. What I was trying to impart was that there are numerous styles of tan billed caps worn in the tropical areas by the Luftwaffe that were not what now is considered an M41 by some collectors.
From my readings, even on this forum, it would appear that at one time all of these tan billed caps were lumped into the M41 category. Now, there is a distinction being drawn between some caps exhibiting certain characteristics as being the only style M41. If that is the case, that is fine. But we still as collectors must recognize that there are perfectly legitimate styles of these cap that don't meet the set criteria.
I don't necessarily agree with the no seam down the middle of the exterior crown. In one sentence, people write that the M41s were modeled on the Heer M40. In the very next sentence, the same author will say that they should not have a seam down the middle. So, which is it? Is it a new design or is it a version of the Heer M40?Esse Quam VideriComment
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What is an M-41?
This site was created to help fellow collectors.
I started this thread to do just that. Help "beginers" that might want to obtain an M-41. Many readers have expressed just that desire here. So my intent is to show known original examples, not muddy the waters with the odd ball exceptions. Yes, many wierd, custom, yet authentic tropical billed caps exist. A beginner, trying to add one in this latter category, will likely end up with a fake and have wasted a lot of money......Last edited by John Hodgin; 09-17-2003, 10:55 AM.Esse Quam VideriComment
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John, I won't say anything else. Sorry about muddying the waters.Comment
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Please keep posting Jack! You are not muddying the waters. I didn't mean it to sound that way, and I apologise for being too curt. What I mean is I don't want to post photos of odd caps here; at least not just yet. Caps like Willi and I posted have been around since the 50's, many with veteran provenance. I would like to focus on these types, and other accepted variations first. Then we can go to the unusual, but real ones. But again, beginners should aviod all M-41s till they have a lot of experience.Originally posted by Jack Melvin
Again, sorry Jack!
And Steve, yes, the grommets are a bronze or brass color, but do seem to rust.Last edited by John Hodgin; 09-17-2003, 11:28 AM.Esse Quam VideriComment
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Here is a third, the one that Willi mentioned, with the breast eagle, machine sewn.Esse Quam VideriComment
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