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    #1

    S-Mine Variation, or Partial Reproduction?

    This mine recently sold on a dealer website. The title of the listing was a "1941 Bouncing Betty S-Mine", but the description also said it was a "WWII 1913 dated S-Mine". I am assuming the 1913 date was a typo by the seller, however I have never seen an S.Mi.35 with a top like this one has.

    Is this a different variation of the S.Mi.35, or a mine with a reproduction top, or what?
    Attached Files
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    #2
    I suppose, this was an attempt make it much more watertight . . . . . . .

    Comment

      #3
      https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...12066083209285

      Comment

        #4
        So do you think it was a prototype then Klarkon? Perhaps that is why it sold for so much, and sold so quickly?

        Comment

          #5
          Maybe it was a test series . . . . .
          I've never seen it before.

          Maybe fake . . . . . . but arduous to make it.
          Everything is possible.

          Comment

            #6
            OK, well if you've never seen it, than it must be something quite unusual.

            The construction and quality of the lid is very good, so if it is a fake part, someone was very meticulous. But if someone had an S.Mi.35 that was in great shape, although missing it's lid, and they had the skill to make a perfect replacement, why make something that is completely different than the originals?

            Like you said, anything is possible, and we may never know the answer.
            Last edited by WWIIBuff; 03-25-2018, 12:54 PM.

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              #7
              I am bringing this thread back up because since my original posting, I have seen 4 or 5 more of these S.Mi.35 variations sold by the same dealer, and a forum member. As a result I have tried do do further research, and have turned up some information I'd like to get opinions on.


              These are definitely not reproductions, they are wartime produced. It appears they may have all been produced in 1941 by the same manufactured brd.


              According to the forum member who sold a couple of these (and who dug them up), these are specially modified to be used on the exterior of panzers as an anti-personnel device. He has given them the designation of S.Mi.35 Pz.
              Attached Files

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                #8
                My research was limited to the internet and a couple German and American manuals I have, but nothing specific about these devices was found. However, I did find on the web, information about the Minenabwurfvorrichtung that were mounted on the exterior of early Tiger I tanks.

                The Minenabwurfvorrichtung were basically canisters mounted to the exterior of the Tiger I, and each were used to launch an S.Mi.35. 5 of them were mounted on the Tiger, 3 on the right, and 2 on the left.

                Here are a few pictures I found on the web showing the Minenabwurfvorrichtung mounted on the Tiger I, and Panzer III:
                Attached Files
                Last edited by WWIIBuff; 08-12-2018, 03:39 AM.

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                  #9
                  Here are a couple close-up pictures of the Minenabwurfvorrichtung canister:
                  Attached Files

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                    #10
                    Although not very clear, this image appears to show a Tiger I with one of the Minenabwurfvorrichtung loaded with an S.Mi.35, and the fuze protruding out.
                    Attached Files

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                      #11
                      Since I could not find any information on the Minenabwurfvorrichtung itself, I must do some speculating at this point. To me it does not make sense that the entire S.Mi.35 (as shown above in Post #1) would be mounted and then launched from these tank-mounted canisters.

                      Using the entire S.Mi.35 (as it is above) would have a couple problems. The first problem is that the exterior of the S.Mi.35 has a rough finish, and would therefore create unwanted friction when being launched out of a tube. Secondly, if it is launched out of a tube, there is no guarantee that it would land sitting upright, so that the interior portion of the mine if able to launch 3 feet in the air and explode as it was designed to do. If it lands on it's side, or even upside down, it would be very ineffective.

                      Therefore, it is my opinion that the S.Mi.35 as shown in Post #1 above would have it's exterior casing removed before being mounted in the Minenabwurfvorrichtung, and the larger oversized lid with the o-ring would create a seal on the canister. This would leave the interior portion with the black powder propelling charge on the bottom, which could then be triggered by the fuze being depressed, or even electronically from the interior of the tank by the crew using a Glühzünder 28. This would cause the S.Mi.35 to detonate about 3 feet from the tank.

                      So what do you guys think? Does any of this make sense? And more importantly, does anyone have war-time technical information about these?

                      Comment

                        #12
                        S-Mine Variation, or Partial Reproduction?

                        WWIIBuff,

                        First off great research.[emoji95][emoji1303]

                        The flanged top makes sense as a way of sealing/supporting the mine in its launcher. It would also make it easier to reload as you would not have a spent case (that could get stuck due to expansion etc in the launch tube) to deal with.

                        As a “infantry broom” they would be effective but I think very cumbersome. They are heavy & would take up a fair amount of room in the vehicle.

                        The discharge cans would be exposed to small arms fire & could be easily disabled if hit with a burst of MG. The fuze & wires would be right out in the open.

                        Once you fired off all of them that’s it!! Now the crew must stop & get out or at least hang out if a hatch to reload, no bueno under fire. You have to clear the tube then slide in a new mine & hook up the fuze.

                        So on paper it sounds like a great idea but I think once tested in combat they quickly realized it was not practical & soon started to develop the LP 326 Wurfgranatpatrone.



                        This could be fired from inside the vehicle with little to no exposure to the crew via a specially designed port & was very effective as an Infantry Broom.



                        This case held 24 of the LP 326 and could be easily stored in the vehicle.



                        Does anyone have in insert for the case? Ive been looking for one for some time now. [emoji41]

                        So in a nutshell. The s-mine you have shown w flange is probably the type of unit used on tanks during this experiment & most certainly NOT a fake or repro as you said.

                        This is just my 2 cents not backed up by any books or literature just common sense & conjecture.

                        Let’s see what some of the others have to add.

                        Bloody well want one of those mines now....[emoji41]




                        Glen
                        Collector of Wehrmacht Optics, Ordnance & Field Equipment.
                        Last edited by whsammler; 08-12-2018, 07:06 AM.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Hi Glen,

                          the WK326LP you pictured is a Standard Wurfkörper. There is another Version that was used in a tank as you mentioned, similar design but a Little different. I have quite a few WK326 and a few boxes (some with inserts, but they are mostly missing), but NONE of the tank Version WK326. They are REALLY scarce.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Bergler,

                            Thanks for the info. I did not know there was a specific PZ type of 326.

                            You learn something new every day.



                            Glen
                            Collector of Wehrmacht Optics, Ordnance & Field Equipment.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Thanks for the reinforcement of my speculation Glen, at least it's good to know someone else thinks this might be possible.

                              I agree about this not being a practical system. That is probably why of all the pictures I found showing the Minenabwurfvorrichtung, only one shows an S.Mi.35 loaded, the rest are all empty cans.

                              I think this might also be the reason all the recent examples are dated 1941, their use possibly ended before Stalingrad. It is probably also the reason some of the recent examples were found planted in the ground, the Wehrmacht just used them like regular S.Mi.35's after the tank-mounted system was found to be impractical.

                              Nice Wk326Lp container you have there.
                              Last edited by WWIIBuff; 08-12-2018, 04:40 PM.

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